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On November 09 2011 00:15 secretary bird wrote:
Just because mules exist the terran doesnt always have more resources than the protoss its more complicated than that but thats not what this discussion is about.
lol...but your argument is unfunded, because mules can deliver more income for SURE. A lot more....in the mega-late game terran doesn't need SCV at all ! lol
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Is anyone able to watch replays while NA is down? Mine says "cannot play offline mode in starter edition".
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On November 09 2011 00:18 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:15 secretary bird wrote:
Just because mules exist the terran doesnt always have more resources than the protoss its more complicated than that but thats not what this discussion is about. lol...but your argument is unfunded, because mules can deliver more income for SURE. A lot more....in the mega-late game terran doesn't need SCV at all ! lol
I'm pretty sure you have no idea why mules exist in the first place so dont talk to me like I'm the one who is clueless when I only said it doesnt ALWAYS mean that the terran has more resources which is true.
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On November 08 2011 22:31 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:21 taintmachine wrote:On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. ghosts 2 shot lings w/ autoattack why would you snipe? because ghosts attack friggin slow and get ripped apart by lings? Go into a unit tester and try 10 ghosts against 50 lings. The ghosts will disappear even if they cost far more.
isnt that the same as any unit sbar zealots and archons? stalkers are exactly the same... both would be stupid to use eithier vs a good amount of lings.
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On November 08 2011 23:08 XRaDiiX wrote:Now My win rate Vs Masters Protoss will just be 10 % instead of 20%. Sad Zergling 
The upgrade buff will ABSOLUTELY have no effect on your win % against toss. 3-4 seconds faster +2 doesn't have any effect on Masters.
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Eh why are people even discussing the upgrade buffs? Zerg benefit allot from upgrades because they're armies are so large (more units with upgrades = more value of said upgrade, simple math).
Terran units are already the most cost-efficient units in the game and the ones that scale the most with upgrades. Protoss units individually are neither cost-efficient (only with a large ball of key units) or scale that well from upgrades. Idk why such a small change spawn so much "discussion".
As a zerg I rather see snipe nerfed than EMP but it's kinda unexplored atm, I believe there are ways to deal with mass ghosts, (but it may still be OP). Overall an intelligent patch IMHO.
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On November 09 2011 00:21 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:18 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 09 2011 00:15 secretary bird wrote:
Just because mules exist the terran doesnt always have more resources than the protoss its more complicated than that but thats not what this discussion is about. lol...but your argument is unfunded, because mules can deliver more income for SURE. A lot more....in the mega-late game terran doesn't need SCV at all ! lol I'm pretty sure you have no idea why mules exist in the first place so dont talk to me like I'm the one who is clueless when I only said it doesnt ALWAYS mean that the terran has more resources which is true.
Mules exists for compensating the fact that terran needs to use SCV for construction so they're not mining...but clever Terran players use them as a way to sustain early pushes without being an all in moviment (even losing some scv and all-troops)
=P
edit: terran will only be behind in mining if he does not macro well (or if the time of mining we're talking is before getting OC), with a fully saturated mining patches terran will have the advantage of mining with mules...so he'll be always ahead !
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On November 09 2011 00:24 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:21 secretary bird wrote:On November 09 2011 00:18 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 09 2011 00:15 secretary bird wrote:
Just because mules exist the terran doesnt always have more resources than the protoss its more complicated than that but thats not what this discussion is about. lol...but your argument is unfunded, because mules can deliver more income for SURE. A lot more....in the mega-late game terran doesn't need SCV at all ! lol I'm pretty sure you have no idea why mules exist in the first place so dont talk to me like I'm the one who is clueless when I only said it doesnt ALWAYS mean that the terran has more resources which is true. Mules exists for compensating the fact that terran needs to use SCV for construction so they're not mining...but clever Terran players use them as a way to sustain early pushes without being an all in moviment (even losing some scv and all-troops) =P
Also because upgrading an orbital costs 150 minerals and time where you cant builds scvs and because you have no way to build as many workers as Zergs or Protoss can with CB and larva inject. You could leave some drones behind and allin with the rest as well as you have more than the terran, its just not as effective as it doesnt have the same synergy as SCV/Marines.
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On November 09 2011 00:24 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:21 secretary bird wrote:On November 09 2011 00:18 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 09 2011 00:15 secretary bird wrote:
Just because mules exist the terran doesnt always have more resources than the protoss its more complicated than that but thats not what this discussion is about. lol...but your argument is unfunded, because mules can deliver more income for SURE. A lot more....in the mega-late game terran doesn't need SCV at all ! lol I'm pretty sure you have no idea why mules exist in the first place so dont talk to me like I'm the one who is clueless when I only said it doesnt ALWAYS mean that the terran has more resources which is true. Mules exists for compensating the fact that terran needs to use SCV for construction so they're not mining...but clever Terran players use them as a way to sustain early pushes without being an all in moviment (even losing some scv and all-troops) =P
MULES don't only compensate for SCVs not mining during construction.
Terran cannot increase their SCV production by any means other than a macro CC (which Protoss and Zerg can also do).
Getting the MULE also requires a 150 mineral upgrade, during which no SCVs can be produced.
Protoss can Chronoboost Probes.
Zerg can devote all Larvae to just Drones.
Whereas increased Probes or Drones can be used for other purposes than just mining, a MULE can only mine and repair.
MULEs are there to allow Terran to make up for the deficit in workers against P and Z.
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On November 09 2011 00:29 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:24 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 09 2011 00:21 secretary bird wrote:On November 09 2011 00:18 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On November 09 2011 00:15 secretary bird wrote:
Just because mules exist the terran doesnt always have more resources than the protoss its more complicated than that but thats not what this discussion is about. lol...but your argument is unfunded, because mules can deliver more income for SURE. A lot more....in the mega-late game terran doesn't need SCV at all ! lol I'm pretty sure you have no idea why mules exist in the first place so dont talk to me like I'm the one who is clueless when I only said it doesnt ALWAYS mean that the terran has more resources which is true. Mules exists for compensating the fact that terran needs to use SCV for construction so they're not mining...but clever Terran players use them as a way to sustain early pushes without being an all in moviment (even losing some scv and all-troops) =P Also because upgrading an orbital costs 150 minerals and time where you cant builds scvs and because you have no way to build as many workers as Zergs or Protoss can with CB and larva inject. You could leave some drones behind and allin with the rest as well as you have more than the terran, its just not as effective as it doesnt have the same synergy as SCV/Marines.
True, but OC gets a lot more from these 150 invested minerals, like Fully detection, scout everywhere in map, and mega macro mode in mid-late game !
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I don't get why people are saying that the upgrade cost reduction will have no real effect on the game. Of course it will.. Why is the buff even there in the first place then, if it's so trivial, except for blizzard saying "hey, idiots! upgrade your units!"
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Keep those protoss Buff's coming. This one was only fair.
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On November 09 2011 00:33 Quotidian wrote:
I don't get why people are saying that the upgrade cost reduction will have no real effect on the game. Of course it will.. Why is the buff even there in the first place then, if it's so trivial, except for blizzard saying "hey, idiots! upgrade your units!"
Because people are not idiots, and can examine what the effects of this buff are.
It's extremely straightforward. L2+ upgrades are slightly cheaper in terms of fixed cost, to the exact extent that it would allow you to replace a zealot with a stalker from the savings at +2.
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On November 09 2011 00:33 Quotidian wrote:
I don't get why people are saying that the upgrade cost reduction will have no real effect on the game. Of course it will.. Why is the buff even there in the first place then, if it's so trivial, except for blizzard saying "hey, idiots! upgrade your units!"
That's it, actually. Just like the buff to Phoenix build time was minimal, and the Warp Prism shield buff was minimal. In fact, I'd even go so far to say that the Fungal Growth didn't have a great deal of impact, nor the Immortal buff: it was just a nod from Blizzard to encourage useage of these particular features. The upgrade cost reduction is tiny, and there was a [D] thread not long after the PTR came out which explained how minimal the effect really is.
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Aww...I'm sad! I have been working for months and ages on making my zvp not being my absolute worst match up, and even though I haven't succeeded yet, they are gonna make it even harder for me now! Guess it's back to the damn drawing board and playing only costum games vs protoss again for a long ass time 
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On November 09 2011 00:11 stokes17 wrote:
Are we still arguing over whether or not reducing an upgrades cost has an effect on its research time?
It doesn't, good double forge builds never idle the forges. Upgrades come at the same time, build will just be slightly smoother, but 50/50 doesn't even leave room for an additional unit.
Yes, we are. We seem to have three factions here. Those who have actually watched or performed a double forge build and know how the game works, those who believe that all Protoss players have such flawless macro that they'd be sitting there for five game seconds spamming the upgrade buttons because they are at 0/0 at all times and that those five seconds comprise a decisive timing window, and those who never stopped playing Supreme Commander and think that reducing the cost of something actually makes it build faster.
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United States5162 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:33 Quotidian wrote:
I don't get why people are saying that the upgrade cost reduction will have no real effect on the game. Of course it will.. Why is the buff even there in the first place then, if it's so trivial, except for blizzard saying "hey, idiots! upgrade your units!"
I think they're saying it won't have an effect on the average players game. A reduction of 150/150 on upgrades that don't come out until at least the mid game won't help a diamond player who doesn't have everything timed out perfectly. It's only at the very top where that 150/150 makes much of a difference.
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On November 09 2011 00:36 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:33 Quotidian wrote:
I don't get why people are saying that the upgrade cost reduction will have no real effect on the game. Of course it will.. Why is the buff even there in the first place then, if it's so trivial, except for blizzard saying "hey, idiots! upgrade your units!" Warp Prism shield buff was minimal
bullshit - it has made warp prisms extremely hard to deal with in all-in situations, or if you're caught out of position and get forcefielded out of your main, etc. For its utility, the shield buff was a major.
I'm getting so tired of protoss players acting like victims.. there's nothing "minimal" about any of the buffs they've received for the last few patches.
On November 09 2011 00:37 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:33 Quotidian wrote:
I don't get why people are saying that the upgrade cost reduction will have no real effect on the game. Of course it will.. Why is the buff even there in the first place then, if it's so trivial, except for blizzard saying "hey, idiots! upgrade your units!" I think they're saying it won't have an effect on the average players game. A reduction of 150/150 on upgrades that don't come out until at least the mid game won't help a diamond player who doesn't have everything timed out perfectly. It's only at the very top where that 150/150 makes much of a difference.
It's just the same as with ghost usage and the ghost nerf -- and yet every protoss player acts like the terran dominance in Korea somehow effects them. plat/dia/master toss players weren't losing games because of emp radius in the first place, and yet somehow this patch is supposed to make sense to average players? Here's a newsflash, tvp is really fucking hard for the majority of the terran population
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So if the upgrade buff was a nerf instead for the same 150/150 more instead of less there wouldnt be 500 pages of whining in this thread because it doesnt even matter?
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Well isn't this thread a clusterfuck.
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EPT
