EPT1.4.2 Patch Live - Page 30
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
- HT - Collossus - Archon Terran has: - ghosts Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:05 Kanil wrote: The utility of the warp prism was always there, though. Protoss players just never bothered use it until Blizzard said "quit your bitching and use it already!" Prism was bad before the buff, shield buff was significant in making it not die as quickly as it did, and even then, Prism play is still gimmicky for the most part and totally cost inefficient. On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote: I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has: - HT - Collossus - Archon Terran has: - ghosts Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. I would trade all 3 of my units to do an instantaneous 2000+ damage to your army. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:17 SeaSwift wrote: *snort* What a bad argument. So Ultralisks and Carriers are really useful? He was saying that Terran doesn't seem to have to use T3 to win a lot in pro games - whether or not the T3 is bad or good is irrelevant to his argument. Costs can be changed. He seemed to be arguing more from a game design PoV rather than pure balance. BC's and Thors don't do anything that other units don't do as well but better .... . The only thing a Thor can do that no other Terran unit can is zoning mutas. BC's in general are just bad ... | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:21 superstartran wrote: Prism was bad before the buff, shield buff was significant in making it not die as quickly as it did, and even then, Prism play is still gimmicky for the most part and totally cost inefficient. I would trade all 3 of my units to do an instantaneous 2000+ damage to your army. Deal. Lowering the HP is still worse then actually killing stuff. | ||
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Sphen5117
United States413 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote: I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has: - HT - Collossus - Archon Terran has: - ghosts Don't say tanks because they suck in tvp. I would trade the whole ghost for 1 lategame terran unit. It's amazing how everyone seems to forget that terran has no lategame unit besides the ghosts. You. Missed. The Point. Your GHOSTS HARD COUNTER. EVERYTHING. WE. HAVE. Our HT's? Useless. Colossi/archons? HP GONE. I Would trade all 3 of these "late game units" for something as effective as your ghost. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:09 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Not an excellent point. If the buff were a nerf instead, there would still be ignorant people in here claiming it made a huge difference and the rest of us would be arguing that it just doesn't really matter. The only thing that would change are the races played by the people who think it's great and the people who think it's awful. So many people are getting all worked up because this is supposedly going to make some kind of big difference in their vP matchups. How? We're reasonable people: Upload one replay of you winning against a Protoss in the last patch where you would have lost if the Protoss had required 50/50 less to research +2/+2. Or one replay of you losing against a Protoss from the new patch. Or provide us with a build order timed out to take advantage of the price change such that it hits a vulnerable timing window that was previously not attainable. The reason you're all up in arms about the concept of a Protoss buff but unable to provide even a single cogent explanation of how it could cause you to lose a game is that no such explanation exists. I could conceive of this shifting the win/loss balance at the very highest levels by some fraction of a percent, where the presence of a single unit several seconds earlier is actually the kind of thing you sometimes notice, but no one arguing here that this buff is going to matter is playing at a level where that is true. The only difference you're going to see on ladder is that there will be more upgrade-heavy builds because of the attention this change draws. the entire point is that protoss upgrades aren't in need of any buffs. There's no reason for it - it's primarily a stimulus buff, which in and of itself is a horrible thing for Blizzard to be doing. They should be buffing, because certain things are too weak, not to stimulate interest in a certain playstyle. Chronoed double forge was already really, really powerful - now that style of play is strengthened even more - even if the total cost of getting fully upgraded is reduced to the cost of getting another expo or whatever. Another really bad thing with this patch is that it's linked to a lategame terran nerf, so terran is back to the point where there is less reason to play a long game vs protoss. So for a stimulus patch, they're giving protoss more reason to play long games, and terran every reason to stay on one base and hail mary an all-in. What's worse, I get the impression that Blizzard are patching - and will keep on patching for a long long while - because they see a spike in interest each time there's a patch. It's the exact same reason why WOW has never stabilized in terms of the frequency with which it is patched. Because patching is itself the goal - not correcting balance. Patching = maintaining players. On November 09 2011 01:17 SeaSwift wrote: *snort* What a bad argument. So Ultralisks and Carriers are really useful? He was saying that Terran doesn't seem to have to use T3 to win a lot in pro games - whether or not the T3 is bad or good is irrelevant to his argument. Costs can be changed. He seemed to be arguing more from a game design PoV rather than pure balance. no, terran has to stay on a low tech army and severely out micro and out multitask the protoss player. This doesn't matter for pro games, but for everyone else it feels very unfair that protoss has such an a-move friendly army, while terran's army is extremely fragile if not microed correctly. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:24 Sphen5117 wrote: You. Missed. The Point. Your GHOSTS HARD COUNTER. EVERYTHING. WE. HAVE. Our HT's? Useless. Colossi/archons? HP GONE. I Would trade all 3 of these "late game units" for something as effective as your ghost. Of course i would , every reasonable Terran player would. Imagine Terran had all your AOE but you had EMP what would happen. You take away ~50% my HP( that will regenerate if you don't engage immidiatly ) then instantly die to my masses of splash damage.... | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:24 Sphen5117 wrote: You. Missed. The Point. Your GHOSTS HARD COUNTER. EVERYTHING. WE. HAVE. Our HT's? Useless. Colossi/archons? HP GONE. I Would trade all 3 of these "late game units" for something as effective as your ghost. You. Want. To. Know. Something. Funny? Even when I EMP your WHOLE ARMY, I can lose the fight. A full upgraded protoss army is too powerful, and every terran will agree with me. EMP gives you a small CHANCE to win the battle. Imagine if you can't EMP the whole army :') | ||
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Sphen5117
United States413 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:26 s3rp wrote: Of course i would , every reasonable Terran player would. Imagine Terran had all your AOE but you had EMP what would happen. You take away ~50% my HP and then instantly die to my masses of splash damage.... Really? Did you forget upgrades? Did you not build medvacs and vikings out of your reactored starports? You land a few EMP's, then roll through me with your barracks army, on whom upgrades scale the hardest of any unit in the game, and are backed up by HEALING. What happens is you take away 50 percent of my HP then I have to try to run away, losing a near third of my army marauders, or I stay and fight and lose much more than you, then I try remaxing on units that are much more expensive and much less cost efficient. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:17 SeaSwift wrote: *snort* What a bad argument. So Ultralisks and Carriers are really useful? He was saying that Terran doesn't seem to have to use T3 to win a lot in pro games - whether or not the T3 is bad or good is irrelevant to his argument. Costs can be changed. He seemed to be arguing more from a game design PoV rather than pure balance. I wouldnt say that, I think he was just whining. So you want terran to have useful T3 but no stim or something? Thats extremely off topic and maybe your opinion but the races dont have to be the same in every aspect. Also it takes time and resources to get a reactored starport, ghost academy and stim as well, thats also teching even if the end result looks like T1 to you. | ||
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HypernovA
Canada556 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:24 Sphen5117 wrote: You. Missed. The Point. Your GHOSTS HARD COUNTER. EVERYTHING. WE. HAVE. Our HT's? Useless. Colossi/archons? HP GONE. I Would trade all 3 of these "late game units" for something as effective as your ghost. People really need to stop using the word HARD COUNTER. A Ghost does NOT hard counter all those units. It only hard counters the Templar IF and ONLY IF EMP goes off first. A hard counter is something like Mutalisk vs Banshee. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:30 Sphen5117 wrote: Really? Did you forget upgrades? Did you not build medvacs and vikings out of your reactored starports? You land a few EMP's, then roll through me with your barracks army, on whom upgrades scale the hardest of any unit in the game, and are backed up by HEALING. What happens is you take away 50 percent of my HP then I have to try to run away, losing a near third of my army marauders, or I stay and fight and lose much more than you, then I try remaxing on units that are much more expensive and much less cost efficient. The will not happen once you have Colossi AND HT's . Even if i EMP you pretty well i will lose alot of units in the fight because the AOE is pretty strong. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:33 HypernovA wrote: People really need to stop using the word HARD COUNTER. A Ghost does NOT hard counter all those units. It only hard counters the Templar IF and ONLY IF EMP goes off first. A hard counter is something like Mutalisk vs Banshee. So you have a different definition of the term "hard counter" when it is used in a SC2 context. So what? You know what he means, and so does everyone else. Arguing semantics won't help anyone. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:26 s3rp wrote: Of course i would , every reasonable Terran player would. Imagine Terran had all your AOE but you had EMP what would happen. You take away ~50% my HP( that will regenerate if you don't engage immidiatly ) then instantly die to my masses of splash damage.... looooool.... If I could instantly remove 50% of your HP I don't even need splash to win fights anymore. Do you understand that if you gave HT a spell that instantly removed 50% HP from the Terran army, had a huge radius, was instant and undodgable, etc. how imbalanced that would be? You'd do nothing but make Gateway/HT and just forge ahead with Chargelots/HT as your Chargelots will kill Marines/Mauraders so fast there is absolutely no need for splash at that point. In fact, if the roles were reversed, you'd probably hear so much Terran bitching moaning and groaning it would be unbelievable. Terran players are the REASON why the game is so severely fucked up in the first place. Complaints about the Void Ray in the early days of the game totally sent this game on a total downward spiral of idiotic balancing decisions. Don't believe me? Look at the patch notes. 1) Void Ray change because Terran players were whining they couldn't open 1-1-1 without dying. Now Void Rays do more damage without charging up and do more damage vs massive. 2) Results in massive PvZ deathball syndrome that was hilariously dumb to watch and play as either side. 3) To counteract deathball syndrome, Blizzard had to turn Infestors into walking death machines with a super Fungal Growth ontop of them that made them so broken, you could make like 15+ Infestors and just wipe out armies over and over again. 4) Waaagh, I can't win vs KA because I don't use ghosts. What happens? Protoss now cannot secure 3rds vs Terran anymore, and has no reasonably efficient way of defending vs Mutas anymore, resulting in huge imbalances across the board. Honestly, the amount of Terran defending is unbelievable in this thread. Terran has the most 1st place finishes out of all the races, has statistically been on top every month except ONE since the release of the game, and has pretty much cemented themselves as by far the best race in the game, and yet people are whining about having to fight on SOMEWHAT equal ground against Protoss. LMAO. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:18 Snowbear wrote: I would like to know what terran unit can deal splash damage / a huge amount of damage lategame in TVP? Protoss has: - HT - Collossus - Archon Terran has: - ghosts Ghosts hardcounter two of those units (Archon/HT) before they can react and make the third even more vulnerable to incredibly powerful range-9 Vikings. Oh...and they can cloak. I'm sure any Protoss player would take a 200/100 unit that can half the HP of most of a Terran army instantly without even needing to upgrade; and do that whilst cloaked with an upgrade. the entire point is that protoss upgrades aren't in need of any buffs. In fairness I'd say this isn't strictly true in one specific case: Shield upgrades. They pretty much don't get used (admittedly largely because Ghosts just hard counter shields instantly) so anything that can be done to try and make them more viable is a good idea imo. | ||
pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:33 HypernovA wrote: People really need to stop using the word HARD COUNTER. A Ghost does NOT hard counter all those units. It only hard counters the Templar IF and ONLY IF EMP goes off first. A hard counter is something like Mutalisk vs Banshee. EMP and snipe have a longer range than feedback. No reason to don't kill the templar before he can do aything. | ||
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surrealist
United States7 Posts
Poor image quality is due to taking it from a LogMeIn session while at work. Sorry! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D9gDw.jpg) | ||
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ThirdDegree
United States329 Posts
And to everyone complaining about how storm kills and emp does not, you forget that generally toss uses zealots. when we strom a bio force, we hit our own units too. you can emp everything and it only hurts the opponent. I actually don't understand why terrans don't get ghosts 100% of the time vs toss | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:36 superstartran wrote: looooool.... If I could instantly remove 50% of your HP I don't even need splash to win fights anymore. Do you understand that if you gave HT a spell that instantly removed 50% HP from the Terran army, had a huge radius, was instant and undodgable, etc. how imbalanced that would be? You'd do nothing but make Gateway/HT and just forge ahead with Chargelots/HT as your Chargelots will kill Marines/Mauraders so fast there is absolutely no need for splash at that point. In fact, if the roles were reversed, you'd probably hear so much Terran bitching moaning and groaning it would be unbelievable. Terran players are the REASON why the game is so severely fucked up in the first place. Complaints about the Void Ray in the early days of the game totally sent this game on a total downward spiral of idiotic balancing decisions. Don't believe me? Look at the patch notes. 1) Void Ray change because Terran players were whining they couldn't open 1-1-1 without dying. Now Void Rays do more damage without charging up and do more damage vs massive. 2) Results in massive PvZ deathball syndrome that was hilariously dumb to watch and play as either side. 3) To counteract deathball syndrome, Blizzard had to turn Infestors into walking death machines with a super Fungal Growth ontop of them that made them so broken, you could make like 15+ Infestors and just wipe out armies over and over again. 4) Waaagh, I can't win vs KA because I don't use ghosts. What happens? Protoss now cannot secure 3rds vs Terran anymore, and has no reasonably efficient way of defending vs Mutas anymore, resulting in huge imbalances across the board. Honestly, the amount of Terran defending is unbelievable in this thread. Terran has the most 1st place finishes out of all the races, has statistically been on top every month except ONE since the release of the game, and has pretty much cemented themselves as by far the best race in the game, and yet people are whining about having to fight on SOMEWHAT equal ground against Protoss. LMAO. Sorry but that is complete non-sense . Do you actually remeber how insane voidrays had been before they had been changed ? And KA combides with Warpgate all over the Map was too good. Instant AOE damage everywhere where power is available yeah that sound reasonable. The crux of Sc2 is not Terran its Warpgate it's a terrible idea and shouldn't be in the game it's what made most of the Protoss MU retarted. | ||
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