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On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food.
Ghosts are mild to moderately OK vs Ultralisks. They are good in the same way banelings are good against Ultras. When you get enough of them, yea it'll work, but Marauders are wayyyyyy better.
On November 08 2011 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. So just to be clear, you're saying that after ghosts completely destroy an entire army of broodlords, you only need a few more ghosts (to make up for the little lost energy) and then you can completely counter an entire re-max of ultras? The same army of ghosts (plus a few more in the second round for extra energy) can kill off an army of broodlords plus an army of ultralisks. You said it, not me.
He didn't say anything of the sort. In fact, he said quite the opposite.
Let me illustrate:
full energy ghosts are highly unlikely [during a ultra switch]. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food.
On November 08 2011 21:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:38 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:27 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This is retarded. You can make anything seem reasonable by playing around with numbers in a meaningless speculative way. How is it meaningless? Why is massing an expensive caster to counter specific massive units "horrific", especially against a late game strategy that relies on a fast tech switch between two unit types?
Just countering brood/ultra doesn't automatically make them "horrific", you need some rationale to explain why they're unfair. Are they too cheap? No. Do they counter everything the Zerg has? No, just the T3 power units. Straw man? I'm not arguing for whether or not something is "horrific", nor am I saying anything about massing caster units. I said your use of numbers and generalizations/assumptions about scenarios are meaningless in your response to him. It's just a laughable way of evaluating a unit's utility or commenting on its effectiveness. That's really all I'm going to say. If you can't broaden your thinking and realize why it is totally illogical, that's not my concern.
What is the proper way of evaluating a unit? His evaluation seems fine to me. He's using numbers to prove how he feels using ghosts, that they typically arent the greatest thing vs ultras. I agree with him. If you get like 25 Ghosts, they will probably kill ultras really damn fast, but they aren't invincible. If you can get them off: Fungal/Infested Terrans if not: Roaches/Zerglings/Banelings are all fantastic against excessive ghosts use.
On November 08 2011 22:01 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. I wasn't talking about effectivity, it's just a fact, snipe 1 shots lings, not saying it's good to do so. Fact is if you storm lets say roaches or corrupters or broodlords you might as well just make archons, point was that ghosts are good against everything, I don't think any terran players has ever been like "ah shit if only I wouldn't have these ghosts now", while there are plenty situations where the least thing you want right now is a ht or a infestor.
I have. A snipe is basically like a tank shell. Ghosts in small numbers are much, much worse against ultras, roaches and zerglings, than if you had converted them to tanks, marauders and marines.
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On November 09 2011 01:37 ThirdDegree wrote:
I'm pretty excited about getting this patch going. My 3/3/0 army was just melted to a significantly smaller 2/1 bio force just due to emps.
And to everyone complaining about how storm kills and emp does not, you forget that generally toss uses zealots. when we strom a bio force, we hit our own units too. you can emp everything and it only hurts the opponent. I actually don't understand why terrans don't get ghosts 100% of the time vs toss
Because getting Ghosts and Vikings and MMM requires a certain amount of economy ? Before you hit that you have to chose what to get first. Getting to Ghosts too fast and you might die to a 2 Base Colossi push. So in most cases it's some raxes , tech to Starport to be safe and then add Ghosts.
Thats like saying i don't get why Protoss doesn't get HT and Colossi all the time. Without enough eco that just not possible. And in TvP if the Protoss focusses on building Colossi you need Vikings asap you can add Ghosts later .
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You know all these discussions would go a lot better if people argued about balance without saying "all you do is a move while I actually have to play well."
When the discussion comes to "emp hard counters colossi" and "EMP only gives terrans a small chance to win a battle" and that terran players have to "severely out micro and out multitask the protoss player" then neither side is thinking very rationally. Protoss is hard. Terran is hard.
From the Protoss perspective, I have never only a-moved against a terran, it usually involves a fast split, setting up chargelots and pulling them back when they're getting too easily kited, 3a4a5a6a, a shitload of blink micro, feedbacks, storms, and forcefields and guardian shields with whatever casters I find that still have energy after the EMP blanket, repositioning colossi, going back to proxy pylon and warping in more, etc. It isn't easy.
I'm aware there is more to terran micro than EMP and a move. But you don't need to "severely out-micro and out-multitask."
Also, this is not that big of a patch. It means terrans will need a few more ghosts late game and/or be more accurate with EMPs. And the upgrades will not come faster, they are just a bit cheaper.
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On November 09 2011 01:24 Quotidian wrote:
What's worse, I get the impression that Blizzard are patching - and will keep on patching for a long long while - because they see a spike in interest each time there's a patch. It's the exact same reason why WOW has never stabilized in terms of the frequency with which it is patched. Because patching is itself the goal - not correcting balance. Patching = maintaining players.
I agree with this. This patch is PR/advertising, not video game development.
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Canada13405 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:54 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 01:24 Quotidian wrote:
What's worse, I get the impression that Blizzard are patching - and will keep on patching for a long long while - because they see a spike in interest each time there's a patch. It's the exact same reason why WOW has never stabilized in terms of the frequency with which it is patched. Because patching is itself the goal - not correcting balance. Patching = maintaining players. I agree with this. This patch is PR/advertising, not video game development.
Hold on. Watching high level protosses get completely destroyed thanks to mass EMP and shield upgrades being too expensive to be worth it (especially in light of emp) leading to a nerf to emp. This patch is definitely just for the sake of getting people to talk about WoL again. Perhaps maybe next time they can change the bunker build time by 5 seconds and only the bunker build time to support your perspective.
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What is the deal with "Starcraft Master"?
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isn't it crazy how it's so close to Providence
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On November 09 2011 02:02 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 01:54 galivet wrote:On November 09 2011 01:24 Quotidian wrote:
What's worse, I get the impression that Blizzard are patching - and will keep on patching for a long long while - because they see a spike in interest each time there's a patch. It's the exact same reason why WOW has never stabilized in terms of the frequency with which it is patched. Because patching is itself the goal - not correcting balance. Patching = maintaining players. I agree with this. This patch is PR/advertising, not video game development. Hold on. Watching high level protosses get completely destroyed thanks to mass EMP and shield upgrades being too expensive to be worth it (especially in light of emp) leading to a nerf to emp. This patch is definitely just for the sake of getting people to talk about WoL again. Perhaps maybe next time they can change the bunker build time by 5 seconds and only the bunker build time to support your perspective.
oh there must have been some bunker nerf in this patch, we just havent noticed it yet
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I hope this hits Korea asap so HuK can benefit when he plays his GSL matches--I assume that by the time it gets to the next round it will be live there, so MC can benefit as well.
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On November 09 2011 02:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I hope this hits Korea asap so HuK can benefit when he plays his GSL matches--I assume that by the time it gets to the next round it will be live there, so MC can benefit as well.
It won't, Patch will be live soon on NA (or is it already?) tomorrow on EU and thursday on KR.
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On November 09 2011 02:34 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 02:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I hope this hits Korea asap so HuK can benefit when he plays his GSL matches--I assume that by the time it gets to the next round it will be live there, so MC can benefit as well.
It won't, Patch will be live soon on NA (or is it already?) tomorrow on EU and thursday on KR.
 ((
Sad Zealot is sad.
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Ahaha fuck i have so much trouble with protoss and storm already wtih my nice 2 radius EMP
high diamond problems
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On November 09 2011 02:35 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 02:34 Lorch wrote:On November 09 2011 02:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I hope this hits Korea asap so HuK can benefit when he plays his GSL matches--I assume that by the time it gets to the next round it will be live there, so MC can benefit as well.
It won't, Patch will be live soon on NA (or is it already?) tomorrow on EU and thursday on KR. (( Sad Zealot is sad.
I thought it was determined that this patch would only have a minimal effect on the game
though it is better than nothing, I dont suspect that there would be a huge shift in the game resulting from it
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On November 09 2011 02:36 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Ahaha fuck i have so much trouble with protoss and storm already wtih my nice 2 radius EMP
high diamond problems
Yep. Now our 2/0/2 army will hit you even faster, and stronger XD
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On November 09 2011 02:40 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 02:35 SeaSwift wrote:On November 09 2011 02:34 Lorch wrote:On November 09 2011 02:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I hope this hits Korea asap so HuK can benefit when he plays his GSL matches--I assume that by the time it gets to the next round it will be live there, so MC can benefit as well.
It won't, Patch will be live soon on NA (or is it already?) tomorrow on EU and thursday on KR. (( Sad Zealot is sad. I thought it was determined that this patch would only have a minimal effect on the game though it is better than nothing, I dont suspect that there would be a huge shift in the game resulting from it
It is a 44% area decrease on EMP. That's a pretty huge difference for PvT tbh.
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On November 09 2011 00:23 WaSa wrote:
Eh why are people even discussing the upgrade buffs? Zerg benefit allot from upgrades because they're armies are so large (more units with upgrades = more value of said upgrade, simple math).
Terran units are already the most cost-efficient units in the game and the ones that scale the most with upgrades. Protoss units individually are neither cost-efficient (only with a large ball of key units) or scale that well from upgrades. Idk why such a small change spawn so much "discussion".
As a zerg I rather see snipe nerfed than EMP but it's kinda unexplored atm, I believe there are ways to deal with mass ghosts, (but it may still be OP). Overall an intelligent patch IMHO.
completely agree, I won't mind if they put a lower cap onto the ghost energy as well
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On November 09 2011 02:46 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 02:40 Roxy wrote:On November 09 2011 02:35 SeaSwift wrote:On November 09 2011 02:34 Lorch wrote:On November 09 2011 02:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I hope this hits Korea asap so HuK can benefit when he plays his GSL matches--I assume that by the time it gets to the next round it will be live there, so MC can benefit as well.
It won't, Patch will be live soon on NA (or is it already?) tomorrow on EU and thursday on KR. (( Sad Zealot is sad. I thought it was determined that this patch would only have a minimal effect on the game though it is better than nothing, I dont suspect that there would be a huge shift in the game resulting from it It is a 44% area decrease on EMP. That's a pretty huge difference for PvT tbh.
Yeah now the radius is as small as storm. As artosis said, hopefully all bad terrans who thought they were good because of their race can get some spanking as the terms are evening up in PvT.
I still dislike how the ghost is the end all be all in TvP.
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Just keep making that ghost worse and worse. How about they make a tweak so mech doesn't get steamrolled by everything protoss makes? That'd solve the ghost issue.
As usual, changes that REALLY hurt the low level terrans because the high level terrans are apparently the only people that understand the concept of micro.
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On November 09 2011 02:46 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 02:40 Roxy wrote:On November 09 2011 02:35 SeaSwift wrote:On November 09 2011 02:34 Lorch wrote:On November 09 2011 02:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I hope this hits Korea asap so HuK can benefit when he plays his GSL matches--I assume that by the time it gets to the next round it will be live there, so MC can benefit as well.
It won't, Patch will be live soon on NA (or is it already?) tomorrow on EU and thursday on KR. (( Sad Zealot is sad. I thought it was determined that this patch would only have a minimal effect on the game though it is better than nothing, I dont suspect that there would be a huge shift in the game resulting from it It is a 44% area decrease on EMP. That's a pretty huge difference for PvT tbh.
Just in the other discussion forum, I thought the community had somewhat decided that the area decrease would only affect timing attacks. In the late game, when you have 5 ghosts with 200 energy, the blanket storms did a ton of redundant sheild depletion. Now there will just be less redundant sheild depletion (as in it will double up on 200 sheild damage instead of 700 now)
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EPT
