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On November 08 2011 21:27 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This is retarded. You can make anything seem reasonable by playing around with numbers in a meaningless speculative way.
How is it meaningless? Why is massing an expensive caster to counter specific massive units "horrific", especially against a late game strategy that relies on a fast tech switch between two unit types?
Just countering brood/ultra doesn't automatically make them "horrific", you need some rationale to explain why they're unfair. Are they too cheap? No. Do they counter everything the Zerg has? No, just the T3 power units.
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On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food.
So just to be clear, you're saying that after ghosts completely destroy an entire army of broodlords, you only need a few more ghosts (to make up for the little lost energy) and then you can completely counter an entire re-max of ultras? The same army of ghosts (plus a few more in the second round for extra energy) can kill off an army of broodlords plus an army of ultralisks.
You said it, not me.
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On November 08 2011 20:34 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 20:28 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 20:23 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 20:16 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 20:12 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 19:59 rauk wrote:
you don't have to have progamer level EMPs because your opponent is equally as bad as you are and thus doesn't have progamer level storms. I don't care about storms all that much. I care about forcefields from 5-10 full energy sentries completely preventing all movement. Spamming F in a line is not something that requires pro-level micro. Trying to EMP sentries that are spread out in the P army before he can start FFing me to death was reasonably difficult with 2 range radius, it will be a lot more so with 1.5 range radius. Frankly I don't think I'll have problems EMPing templars, they're so ridiculously slow anyway, and if he's making a crapton of them, there's less sentries and I can dodge storms and retreat to heal. 10 full energy sentries is also 500/1000. Try getting some medivacs, picking them up, and moving away, since all those forcefields have just wasted 1000 gas worth of stuff from the protoss side? That's like saying 10 medivacs are 1000 wasted gas, because you could just opt to not stim. Medivac lifting is a reasonable tactic in small-scale encounters, it would require completely ridiculous APM to do it with a major army, and you'd lose half those loaded medivacs to stalkers anyway. I think EMP is bad for the matchup, but it needs to exist as a counter to casters. I don't understand why you're being so defensive, as if I was calling Protoss a mindless 1a race or something. Everyone on SotG also said that they find this change odd, and would have preferred a shield damage reduction instead. It's not like saying that, because I offered a way in which you can make those sentries wasted gas whereas medivacs are never wasted gas. You are also assuming you are at a point where somehow stalkers can blink forward into your stimmed army to be able to snipe out those medivacs without a ton of stalkers also being destroyed. If they have 10 sentries and enough stalkers to do that, you should have enough EMPs do deal the number of sentries. If not, the protoss should probably win that engagement anyway, especially if his micro is good enough for proper blinking + forcefields + positioning of his sentries to avoid clumping against EMP (very difficult with the way SC2 unit pathing works) compared to your inability to EMP properly means you were outmicroed and/or outmacroed. I am talking about chargelot heavy comps, and forcefielding nearly the entire army to prevent kiting. Trying to airlift out of that will result in dead medivacs.
So kite earlier, if he is in range with the sentries to forcefield behind you, the zealots have been attacking for quite a while, assuming he doesnt go in with sentries first. If he does, a-move then kite 
Also, if he has a lot of sentries and chargelots, what kills your medivacs so fast? sentries only have a flashlight that might blind one or two pilots, resulting in a crash but that's it.
If he has a ton of chargelots, 5-10 sentries and a lot of blinkstalkers and your army is small enough so that he can trap a big portion of it, you propably lost somewhere else. (Usually when I tried to go chargelot heavy with forcefields the FFs did way more damage to me than Terran in the later stages, which is why I only use them for guardian shield now.
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On November 08 2011 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. So just to be clear, you're saying that after ghosts completely destroy an entire army of broodlords, you only need a few more ghosts (to make up for the little lost energy) and then you can completely counter an entire re-max of ultras? You said it, not me.
I didn't say that at all. I was responding to someone who said that ghosts decimate ultras, and I pointed out that even full energy ghosts are barely cost effective against Ultras, and that in reality you have maybe 3-4 snipes available per ghost, if that.
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On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food.
This has nothing to do with cost effectivness or anything, and playing around with numbers won't proof anything.
Let's just compare some spellcasters here:
HT: Good vs bio/hydras/mutas/lings/baneling and if somewhat decent against roaches, can also feedback ghosts/festors/medivacs and anything else that has energy. Sucks vs mech, against protoss units, broodlords, ultras etc.
Infestor: Good vs bio/stalker/hydra/roach/ling/baneling somewhat decent vs zealot (though it takes forever to kill zealots with fumble) and it's a decent harras unit, used to have neural which is kinda useless now against almost anything, sucks vs tanks/ghosts/hts/colossi etc.
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit, hard counters all of zerg t3 and infestor, is good against every protoss unit in the game, can also harras and cloak. Unless you play tvt it's never bad to have some of these. Also Snipe/EMP have more range than feedback/fumble (yay!).
This has nothing to do with race bias or anything, and I obviously didn't cover everything about each spell casters, it's just a fact that ghosts are by far the best spellcaster out of these three, and some may say even in the entire game. The fact that they do really well against every protoss unit (thanks to emp) and also counter all of zerg t3 (if you don't believe that they work wonders against ultras watch july vs. mvp on metalopolis from gsl august) and every other spellcaster in the game is just rediculous, and we are only starting to see the potential of this unit.
On top of that emp is the best of the three spells as well. Storm is the only one thats dougeable and it's damage got nerfed together with the removal of KA, fumble stuns and EMP does instant damage (though that's only a PvT issue).
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Even if the auto-matchmaking system gives you 50% wins in all 3 matchups, it's not fun to win 50% of your mirror, 60+% of tvz and feel hopeless going into tvp, knowing that you have to win before he gets out collosus and HTs.
Cheaper upgrades make upgrades faster. Anyone who "does math" and says that the upgrades are still the same length have no real concept of how the game actually works. Upgrades are rarely, except in special builds, hit at a certain time, all the time, at the expense of other basic macro priorities. They are typically fit into the builds by using extra accumulated gas/minerals that would have been used to tech somewhere else/add more production/set up an expansion/gear up for an attack/defense. When you have cheaper upgrades, its much easier to accumulate the required resources in the normal course of macro and hence makes it easier to fit in earlier in builds. In empirical practice, cheaper means faster, on average, across all players and games. That said, I would be fine with the upgrade buff if the emp nerf weren't so bad.
I'd almost rather have KA back in the game than have to nerf emp. I like the shield upgrade idea reducing emp damage to shields.
The emp nerf effectively kills early ghost builds which depended on doing cost effective damage to shields/sentry energy. Terrans have one less pressure build to use, allowing protoss to either macro up more easily, or use their more powerful 2 base timings. This also makes it more dangerous for terrans to take an early third, which they now need even more in order to get out more ghosts to deal with the protoss deathball.
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On November 08 2011 21:33 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. Generally the issue isn't the cost it's a mixture of the unit composition that the Zerg players can use, having one unit with that massive range that can spam down your biggest/strongest/highest tech units literallally as fast as your opponent can click without them even being able to get a hit in - and with one unit being the answer to all of it so that there's not even any choice to make to find the best answer to the Zergs most powerful tech options. That isn't intended as a balance complaint, but merely to point out there's more to it than the base cost.
But Zerg players can use any composition they please at that point. If you're going for ultras, you already have melee upgrades, and Hive for Adrenal Glands. You don't have to overcommit to your T3 units, just get enough to force a counter.
Look at the Blizzcon finals. If, instead of making TWENTY SEVEN broodlords, Nestea had made 12, and spammed cracklings, MVP would have been completely dead. All he had was a handful of tanks and a bazillion ghosts.
The point of Zerg T3 units is to require counters not found in the normal marine/tank army. Those counters are vikings or ghosts or marauders. Vikings are terrible against everything but broods, marauders are terrible against everything but ultras and roaches. Ghosts are good against both broods and ultras, but they're absolute pants against mass units like lings.
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On November 08 2011 21:38 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:27 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This is retarded. You can make anything seem reasonable by playing around with numbers in a meaningless speculative way. How is it meaningless? Why is massing an expensive caster to counter specific massive units "horrific", especially against a late game strategy that relies on a fast tech switch between two unit types? Just countering brood/ultra doesn't automatically make them "horrific", you need some rationale to explain why they're unfair. Are they too cheap? No. Do they counter everything the Zerg has? No, just the T3 power units.
Straw man? I'm not arguing for whether or not something is "horrific", nor am I saying anything about massing caster units.
I said your use of numbers and generalizations/assumptions about scenarios are meaningless in your response to him. It's just a laughable way of evaluating a unit's utility or commenting on its effectiveness. That's really all I'm going to say. If you can't broaden your thinking and realize why it is totally illogical, that's not my concern.
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On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit.
Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks.
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I'm guessing everybody watched Oz in the GSL just now.. that was the power of upgrades - and that was pre-buff. It's retarded. It's obvious that protoss doesn't need a buff to their upgrades, even if it is just a stimulus buff like what they're doing now. The fact that Blizzard keeps doing buffs to stimulate play is in itself completely wrong - they should just let the game evolve on its own instead of patching every other month to stimulate the player base to keep playing, like this is WOW or something...
We're going back to the days where terran never, ever wants to play a macro game vs protoss. Thanks for that, Blizzard.
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On November 08 2011 21:53 Quotidian wrote:
I'm guessing everybody watched Oz in the GSL just now.. that was the power of upgrades - and that was pre-buff. It's retarded. It's obvious that protoss doesn't need a buff to their upgrades, even if it is just a stimulus buff like what they're doing now. The fact that Blizzard keeps doing buffs to stimulate play is in itself completely wrong - they should just let the game evolve on its own instead of patching every other month to stimulate the player base to keep playing, like this is WOW or something...
We're going back to the days where terran never, ever wants to play a macro game vs protoss. Thanks for that, Blizzard.
agreed....
adding to the upgrade buff,in the game against nada, he missed the 2 dt´s by 2 pixels and in the next patch this will become even more harder.....
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On November 08 2011 21:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:38 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:27 FallDownMarigold wrote:On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This is retarded. You can make anything seem reasonable by playing around with numbers in a meaningless speculative way. How is it meaningless? Why is massing an expensive caster to counter specific massive units "horrific", especially against a late game strategy that relies on a fast tech switch between two unit types? Just countering brood/ultra doesn't automatically make them "horrific", you need some rationale to explain why they're unfair. Are they too cheap? No. Do they counter everything the Zerg has? No, just the T3 power units. Straw man? I'm not arguing for whether or not something is "horrific", nor am I saying anything about massing caster units.
It's not a strawman, since I wasn't talking to you in the first place. I was responding to someone else who said ghosts are imbalanced.
I said your use of numbers and generalizations/assumptions about scenarios are meaningless in your response to him. It's just a laughable way of evaluating a unit's utility or commenting on its effectiveness. That's really all I'm going to say. If you can't broaden your thinking and realize why it is totally illogical, that's not my concern.
How is it laughable to discuss the resource and supply cost of units, when discussing perceived imbalances in an economy-based RTS? What other metric could there possibly be? Infrastructure requirements?
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On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This has nothing to do with cost effectivness or anything, and playing around with numbers won't proof anything. Let's just compare some spellcasters here: HT: Good vs bio/hydras/mutas/lings/baneling and if somewhat decent against roaches, can also feedback ghosts/festors/medivacs and anything else that has energy. Sucks vs mech, against protoss units, broodlords, ultras etc. Infestor: Good vs bio/stalker/hydra/roach/ling/baneling somewhat decent vs zealot (though it takes forever to kill zealots with fumble) and it's a decent harras unit, used to have neural which is kinda useless now against almost anything, sucks vs tanks/ghosts/hts/colossi etc. Ghost: Kills every zerg unit, hard counters all of zerg t3 and infestor, is good against every protoss unit in the game, can also harras and cloak. Unless you play tvt it's never bad to have some of these. Also Snipe/EMP have more range than feedback/fumble (yay!). This has nothing to do with race bias or anything, and I obviously didn't cover everything about each spell casters, it's just a fact that ghosts are by far the best spellcaster out of these three, and some may say even in the entire game. The fact that they do really well against every protoss unit (thanks to emp) and also counter all of zerg t3 (if you don't believe that they work wonders against ultras watch july vs. mvp on metalopolis from gsl august) and every other spellcaster in the game is just rediculous, and we are only starting to see the potential of this unit. On top of that emp is the best of the three spells as well. Storm is the only one thats dougeable and it's damage got nerfed together with the removal of KA, fumble stuns and EMP does instant damage (though that's only a PvT issue).
Your analysis is completely wrong. Ghosts do not even remotely counter every Zerg unit they are really bad unless the Zerg has infestors and/or hive tech. They only "hard counter" Ultras in a choke when you have tons of energy on them otherwise they are just decent. Also they are not better at harassing than infestors or HT. Infestors are easily more versatile than ghosts its good to get them in any matchup 100% of the time.
Its not a fact that ghosts are "by far the best spellcaster" with the new patch I am certain thats only your flawed opinion.
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On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks.
I wasn't talking about effectivity, it's just a fact, snipe 1 shots lings, not saying it's good to do so. Fact is if you storm lets say roaches or corrupters or broodlords you might as well just make archons, point was that ghosts are good against everything, I don't think any terran players has ever been like "ah shit if only I wouldn't have these ghosts now", while there are plenty situations where the least thing you want right now is a ht or a infestor.
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could the horror of EMP be finally over?
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On November 08 2011 22:01 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. I wasn't talking about effectivity, it's just a fact, snipe 1 shots lings, not saying it's good to do so. Fact is if you storm lets say roaches or corrupters or broodlords you might as well just make archons, point was that ghosts are good against everything, I don't think any terran players has ever been like "ah shit if only I wouldn't have these ghosts now", while there are plenty situations where the least thing you want right now is a ht or a infestor.
So they are bad against lings but they are good against everything?
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On November 08 2011 22:01 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:53 yeint wrote:On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:
Ghost: Kills every zerg unit. Ghosts kill lings about as effectively as drones kill ultralisks. I wasn't talking about effectivity, it's just a fact, snipe 1 shots lings, not saying it's good to do so.
But you count using snipe against lings as "kills all zerg units", why not say that HTs can technically storm ultralisks over and over until they're dead, and also "kill all zerg units"?
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On November 08 2011 21:44 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:22 yeint wrote:
One full energy ghost can snipe 8 times. It takes 13 snipes to kill an Ultra, i.e. about 1.65 ghosts.
1 Ultra = 300/200
1.65 ghosts = 330/165
Considering that ghosts are made to counter Broodlords, and the Ultra switch comes afterwards, full energy ghosts are highly unlikely. It takes more than 3 half energy ghosts to kill 1 ultra. I really don't understand how it's "horrific" for 600/300 6 food to kill 300/200 6 food. This has nothing to do with cost effectivness or anything, and playing around with numbers won't proof anything. Let's just compare some spellcasters here: HT: Good vs bio/hydras/mutas/lings/baneling and if somewhat decent against roaches, can also feedback ghosts/festors/medivacs and anything else that has energy. Sucks vs mech, against protoss units, broodlords, ultras etc. Infestor: Good vs bio/stalker/hydra/roach/ling/baneling somewhat decent vs zealot (though it takes forever to kill zealots with fumble) and it's a decent harras unit, used to have neural which is kinda useless now against almost anything, sucks vs tanks/ghosts/hts/colossi etc. Ghost: Kills every zerg unit, hard counters all of zerg t3 and infestor, is good against every protoss unit in the game, can also harras and cloak. Unless you play tvt it's never bad to have some of these. Also Snipe/EMP have more range than feedback/fumble (yay!). This has nothing to do with race bias or anything, and I obviously didn't cover everything about each spell casters, it's just a fact that ghosts are by far the best spellcaster out of these three, and some may say even in the entire game. The fact that they do really well against every protoss unit (thanks to emp) and also counter all of zerg t3 (if you don't believe that they work wonders against ultras watch july vs. mvp on metalopolis from gsl august) and every other spellcaster in the game is just rediculous, and we are only starting to see the potential of this unit. On top of that emp is the best of the three spells as well. Storm is the only one thats dougeable and it's damage got nerfed together with the removal of KA, fumble stuns and EMP does instant damage (though that's only a PvT issue).
Well, Ghosts kill every Zerg unit as much as Infestors and HTs do, just the other way round, while fungal and Storm is great vs low HP units, Snipe is good vs units with a lot of hp+armor.
Also you forgot about Infested Terrans wich are basically Marines for only the cost of energy.
So:
Ghosts - Good vs Casters, big units, can cloak, can launch a nuclear freaking missile (not that it matters in over 0.1% of the games, still awesome though 
Infestors - good vs units that rely on mobility, low HP units, air, great harras(Fungal and Infested Terrans, whatever you please), can burrow move
HTs - Good vs every caster but Ghosts, low/middlish hp units, slow units. can merge to form Archon.
So you see? ever caster has his own strengths and weaknesses.
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Reading threads like these seriously makes me pray no one from blizzard ever browses this site.
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On November 08 2011 21:53 Quotidian wrote:
I'm guessing everybody watched Oz in the GSL just now.. that was the power of upgrades - and that was pre-buff. It's retarded. It's obvious that protoss doesn't need a buff to their upgrades, even if it is just a stimulus buff like what they're doing now. The fact that Blizzard keeps doing buffs to stimulate play is in itself completely wrong - they should just let the game evolve on its own instead of patching every other month to stimulate the player base to keep playing, like this is WOW or something...
We're going back to the days where terran never, ever wants to play a macro game vs protoss. Thanks for that, Blizzard.
You're right. Because Taeja played the perfect macro game and then Oz just 1a'ed his way through perfect splitting, on target EMPs, focus-firing Vikings and a flanking army all whilst dealing with a drop in his main and being on equal economy to Oz.
YOU'RE RIGHT, in that you have no idea. Upgrades were like 2-3 to 2-2 at the end I believe, and Oz actually did some amazing things like pressure the front and make more expansions. If the races were reversed, same thing would have happened on macro alone. Oz had built himself a strong position into the 1 battle, and he won using micro, macro and having better decision making than his opponent.
Don't insult players who won on their better play. Taeja and Nada (if you want to look at both) did nothing more impressive than Oz in either game.
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EPT
