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On November 04 2011 06:30 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:22 Loooui wrote:On November 04 2011 06:14 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:11 Loooui wrote:
This is by NO means an acceptable excuse. There were many examples in Clouds thread that was just downright disgusting behaviour from ESL. Just an example here, Grubby had to wait 3 years (LOL) for a win from 2007 before he got prize money from ESL. Like tyler said, money actually declines in value over time. You guys need to revalue the prizes after inflation when it goes over 90 days, otherwise you don´t pay your debts.
Paying some prize money years after deadline is a joke. Worst part is that you cannot give an example of what you are doing to solve the problem. ". Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities." is NOT enough. It's 2011 (almost 2012) now buddy. Citing an incident almost 5 years ago is hardly proof that today's ESL is running things poorly. And yes, as their revenue picks up and their payout system becomes more efficient, their day to day activity will catch them up. Also, for the record, their outstanding payments represent 0.46% of what they have currently paid out in total, they really don't have far to go to "catch up." Oh so since they dont pay for 3 years you cannot be citing it? They payed back the money ONE year ago, so i wouldn´t call it outdated by any means. Also, how can you be so sure that their payout system becomes more efficient? What kind of proof do you have? Do you work there or what? If its been like this for years, and they think the problem basically solves itself is just naive. Also where did you get the number 0.46% from? would be interesting to know since a lot of progamers came out and told us that ESL still owed them money. Convert Euros to dollars and add it to their current USD "debt." They owe approximately $46,000. 46000/10000000 = ~0.46% And that problem with Grubby stemmed from how things were run back in 2007. Documents get lost and things get forgotten. It's not surprising that once it fell off the radar it took the 2010 ESL to fix it. If anything that's indicative of how the improvements in the league have allowed them to catch up and correct past mistakes. My proof that their system is good and getting better? Players keep going to their tournaments.
Exactly, just look at the guy above. He said that he hadn't been paid for something that happened last year, but it was revealed that he hadn't checked his balance / email. I'd imagine that email was sent last year. Once something appears to have passed, it can stay undetected for a loong time...
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On November 04 2011 06:30 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:22 Loooui wrote:On November 04 2011 06:14 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:11 Loooui wrote:
This is by NO means an acceptable excuse. There were many examples in Clouds thread that was just downright disgusting behaviour from ESL. Just an example here, Grubby had to wait 3 years (LOL) for a win from 2007 before he got prize money from ESL. Like tyler said, money actually declines in value over time. You guys need to revalue the prizes after inflation when it goes over 90 days, otherwise you don´t pay your debts.
Paying some prize money years after deadline is a joke. Worst part is that you cannot give an example of what you are doing to solve the problem. ". Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities." is NOT enough. It's 2011 (almost 2012) now buddy. Citing an incident almost 5 years ago is hardly proof that today's ESL is running things poorly. And yes, as their revenue picks up and their payout system becomes more efficient, their day to day activity will catch them up. Also, for the record, their outstanding payments represent 0.46% of what they have currently paid out in total, they really don't have far to go to "catch up." Oh so since they dont pay for 3 years you cannot be citing it? They payed back the money ONE year ago, so i wouldn´t call it outdated by any means. Also, how can you be so sure that their payout system becomes more efficient? What kind of proof do you have? Do you work there or what? If its been like this for years, and they think the problem basically solves itself is just naive. Also where did you get the number 0.46% from? would be interesting to know since a lot of progamers came out and told us that ESL still owed them money. Convert Euros to dollars and add it to their current USD "debt." They owe approximately $46,000. 46000/10000000 = ~0.46% And that problem with Grubby stemmed from how things were run back in 2007. Documents get lost and things get forgotten. It's not surprising that once it fell off the radar it took the 2010 ESL to fix it. If anything that's indicative of how the improvements in the league have allowed them to catch up and correct past mistakes. My proof that their system is good and getting better? Players keep going to their tournaments.
Players keep going to their tournaments isn´t what i would call proof. And no, i don´t think the 2010 ESL "fix" is indicative for improvements since many sc2 progamers still say they miss money from more more than a year ago. Also the number "46 000 dollar" comes from ESL if im not mistaken? They are not really what i would call objective.
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On November 04 2011 06:30 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:22 Loooui wrote:On November 04 2011 06:14 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:11 Loooui wrote:
This is by NO means an acceptable excuse. There were many examples in Clouds thread that was just downright disgusting behaviour from ESL. Just an example here, Grubby had to wait 3 years (LOL) for a win from 2007 before he got prize money from ESL. Like tyler said, money actually declines in value over time. You guys need to revalue the prizes after inflation when it goes over 90 days, otherwise you don´t pay your debts.
Paying some prize money years after deadline is a joke. Worst part is that you cannot give an example of what you are doing to solve the problem. ". Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities." is NOT enough. It's 2011 (almost 2012) now buddy. Citing an incident almost 5 years ago is hardly proof that today's ESL is running things poorly. And yes, as their revenue picks up and their payout system becomes more efficient, their day to day activity will catch them up. Also, for the record, their outstanding payments represent 0.46% of what they have currently paid out in total, they really don't have far to go to "catch up." Oh so since they dont pay for 3 years you cannot be citing it? They payed back the money ONE year ago, so i wouldn´t call it outdated by any means. Also, how can you be so sure that their payout system becomes more efficient? What kind of proof do you have? Do you work there or what? If its been like this for years, and they think the problem basically solves itself is just naive. Also where did you get the number 0.46% from? would be interesting to know since a lot of progamers came out and told us that ESL still owed them money. Convert Euros to dollars and add it to their current USD "debt." They owe approximately $46,000. 46000/10000000 = ~0.46% And that problem with Grubby stemmed from how things were run back in 2007. Documents get lost and things get forgotten. It's not surprising that once it fell off the radar it took the 2010 ESL to fix it. If anything that's indicative of how the improvements in the league have allowed them to catch up and correct past mistakes. My proof that their system is good and getting better? Players keep going to their tournaments.
? to the last line , thats more called the influence of propaganda and stupidy the smart players and very notable ones dont attend , i do not know how the IEM / ESL influence is meaning i do not know how they are split or formed together , but i do know that the current ESL excluding IEM about wich i dont have enough intel is totaly a organisation that has to fall.
But given how Carnac posts and how it works together the odds are 80 / 20 that Carnac is for the 80 % chance a corrupt buisnessman , or the 20 % he gets abused.
only taking stuff in account that is visible , invisible realistic options i keep quiet about.
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On November 04 2011 06:38 Loooui wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:30 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:22 Loooui wrote:On November 04 2011 06:14 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:11 Loooui wrote:
This is by NO means an acceptable excuse. There were many examples in Clouds thread that was just downright disgusting behaviour from ESL. Just an example here, Grubby had to wait 3 years (LOL) for a win from 2007 before he got prize money from ESL. Like tyler said, money actually declines in value over time. You guys need to revalue the prizes after inflation when it goes over 90 days, otherwise you don´t pay your debts.
Paying some prize money years after deadline is a joke. Worst part is that you cannot give an example of what you are doing to solve the problem. ". Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities." is NOT enough. It's 2011 (almost 2012) now buddy. Citing an incident almost 5 years ago is hardly proof that today's ESL is running things poorly. And yes, as their revenue picks up and their payout system becomes more efficient, their day to day activity will catch them up. Also, for the record, their outstanding payments represent 0.46% of what they have currently paid out in total, they really don't have far to go to "catch up." Oh so since they dont pay for 3 years you cannot be citing it? They payed back the money ONE year ago, so i wouldn´t call it outdated by any means. Also, how can you be so sure that their payout system becomes more efficient? What kind of proof do you have? Do you work there or what? If its been like this for years, and they think the problem basically solves itself is just naive. Also where did you get the number 0.46% from? would be interesting to know since a lot of progamers came out and told us that ESL still owed them money. Convert Euros to dollars and add it to their current USD "debt." They owe approximately $46,000. 46000/10000000 = ~0.46% And that problem with Grubby stemmed from how things were run back in 2007. Documents get lost and things get forgotten. It's not surprising that once it fell off the radar it took the 2010 ESL to fix it. If anything that's indicative of how the improvements in the league have allowed them to catch up and correct past mistakes. My proof that their system is good and getting better? Players keep going to their tournaments. Players keep going to their tournaments isn´t what i would call proof. And no, i don´t think the 2010 ESL "fix" is indicative for improvements since many sc2 progamers still say they miss money from more more than a year ago. Also the number "46 000 dollar" comes from ESL if im not mistaken? They are not really what i would call objective.
Fine, so you just think they're liars. You're allowed to have that opinion but I don't see why you're in this thread. If every explanation and story they offer is going to be met with "you're a liar" then any discourse with you probably won't be terribly productive.
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The biggest issue that I found when I read Cloud's post was the fact that pro gamers personally have to contact and "remind" the organisations that they actually owe them money, else nothing will happen for up to a year.
It's quite absurd if you think about it...
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On November 04 2011 06:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
How about players start requesting interest let say 5% their winnings monthly if ESL is late (after 90 days, if player has given bank account of course). This should make ESL much quicker.
Not sure about other countries but 5% interest on US dollars is downright usury. Current interest rates are flirting with 0% on pretty much everything except the most jackpot investments.
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the problem here simply has to do with business matter.
the players has no leverage on expecting his prize money on time. he has to "trust" the tournament organizer.
contracts can only be upheld if and only if both players AND organizers have leverage, simple game theory.
as of right now, players have no real power. there's absolutely nothing cloud or any other player can do about ESL taking up to a year to pay the prize.
now, i understand carmac's position which is "hey guiz trust us, we're legit, and we'll pay within 90 days, so long as we get information from players". Which is a great PR, and I'm sure IEM is legit on their payment.
but the problem here is 'trust". trust doesn't actually mean shit in legal transaction, it has to do with leverage. Players can't indite the organizers since the legal fees would out weigh whatever the disputed amount of prizemoney being owed.
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So everyone that said they hadn't gotten money from esls for a 6 months to 1+ years is just lying and its only 3 months max? Kinda find it hard to believe that many people would lie.
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On November 04 2011 06:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
How about players start requesting interest let say 5% their winnings monthly if ESL is late (after 90 days, if player has given bank account of course). This should make ESL much quicker.
By putting the ESL in default (§ 286 BGB) you can claim 5% interests (§ 288 BGB) according to German civil law.
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On November 04 2011 06:41 Serashin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:30 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:22 Loooui wrote:On November 04 2011 06:14 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:11 Loooui wrote:
This is by NO means an acceptable excuse. There were many examples in Clouds thread that was just downright disgusting behaviour from ESL. Just an example here, Grubby had to wait 3 years (LOL) for a win from 2007 before he got prize money from ESL. Like tyler said, money actually declines in value over time. You guys need to revalue the prizes after inflation when it goes over 90 days, otherwise you don´t pay your debts.
Paying some prize money years after deadline is a joke. Worst part is that you cannot give an example of what you are doing to solve the problem. ". Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities." is NOT enough. It's 2011 (almost 2012) now buddy. Citing an incident almost 5 years ago is hardly proof that today's ESL is running things poorly. And yes, as their revenue picks up and their payout system becomes more efficient, their day to day activity will catch them up. Also, for the record, their outstanding payments represent 0.46% of what they have currently paid out in total, they really don't have far to go to "catch up." Oh so since they dont pay for 3 years you cannot be citing it? They payed back the money ONE year ago, so i wouldn´t call it outdated by any means. Also, how can you be so sure that their payout system becomes more efficient? What kind of proof do you have? Do you work there or what? If its been like this for years, and they think the problem basically solves itself is just naive. Also where did you get the number 0.46% from? would be interesting to know since a lot of progamers came out and told us that ESL still owed them money. Convert Euros to dollars and add it to their current USD "debt." They owe approximately $46,000. 46000/10000000 = ~0.46% And that problem with Grubby stemmed from how things were run back in 2007. Documents get lost and things get forgotten. It's not surprising that once it fell off the radar it took the 2010 ESL to fix it. If anything that's indicative of how the improvements in the league have allowed them to catch up and correct past mistakes. My proof that their system is good and getting better? Players keep going to their tournaments. ? to the last line , thats more called the influence of propaganda and stupidy the smart players and very notable ones dont attend , i do not know how the IEM / ESL influence is meaning i do not know how they are split or formed together , but i do know that the current ESL excluding IEM about wich i dont have enough intel is totaly a organisation that has to fall. But given how Carnac posts and how it works together the odds are 80 / 20 that Carnac is for the 80 % chance a corrupt buisnessman , or the 20 % he gets abused. only taking stuff in account that is visible , invisible realistic options i keep quiet about.
Wow, someone's in bad blood about Carmac. What happened??
And for the record, here's the player list for Cologne last year, Cologne this year, Guangzhou & New York (considering MLG Orlando was taking place at the same time).
I'd hardly call that a list of players who aren't smart or well known...
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On November 04 2011 06:45 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
How about players start requesting interest let say 5% their winnings monthly if ESL is late (after 90 days, if player has given bank account of course). This should make ESL much quicker.
Not sure about other countries but 5% interest on US dollars is downright usury. Current interest rates are flirting with 0% on pretty much everything except the most jackpot investments.
current interest rates in a bank is around 0%, but interest rate on a LOAN on another hand is much higher. If anything, it should be considered a 'loan', since they're effectively loaning their prizemoney to "x" tourney to continue using the prizemoney as a fund.
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Poland375 Posts
On November 04 2011 06:47 darkest44 wrote:
So everyone that said they hadn't gotten money from esls for a 6 months to 1+ years is just lying and its only 3 months max? Kinda find it hard to believe that many people would lie.
No, that's not what my post says.
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On November 04 2011 06:42 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:38 Loooui wrote:On November 04 2011 06:30 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:22 Loooui wrote:On November 04 2011 06:14 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:11 Loooui wrote:
This is by NO means an acceptable excuse. There were many examples in Clouds thread that was just downright disgusting behaviour from ESL. Just an example here, Grubby had to wait 3 years (LOL) for a win from 2007 before he got prize money from ESL. Like tyler said, money actually declines in value over time. You guys need to revalue the prizes after inflation when it goes over 90 days, otherwise you don´t pay your debts.
Paying some prize money years after deadline is a joke. Worst part is that you cannot give an example of what you are doing to solve the problem. ". Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities." is NOT enough. It's 2011 (almost 2012) now buddy. Citing an incident almost 5 years ago is hardly proof that today's ESL is running things poorly. And yes, as their revenue picks up and their payout system becomes more efficient, their day to day activity will catch them up. Also, for the record, their outstanding payments represent 0.46% of what they have currently paid out in total, they really don't have far to go to "catch up." Oh so since they dont pay for 3 years you cannot be citing it? They payed back the money ONE year ago, so i wouldn´t call it outdated by any means. Also, how can you be so sure that their payout system becomes more efficient? What kind of proof do you have? Do you work there or what? If its been like this for years, and they think the problem basically solves itself is just naive. Also where did you get the number 0.46% from? would be interesting to know since a lot of progamers came out and told us that ESL still owed them money. Convert Euros to dollars and add it to their current USD "debt." They owe approximately $46,000. 46000/10000000 = ~0.46% And that problem with Grubby stemmed from how things were run back in 2007. Documents get lost and things get forgotten. It's not surprising that once it fell off the radar it took the 2010 ESL to fix it. If anything that's indicative of how the improvements in the league have allowed them to catch up and correct past mistakes. My proof that their system is good and getting better? Players keep going to their tournaments. Players keep going to their tournaments isn´t what i would call proof. And no, i don´t think the 2010 ESL "fix" is indicative for improvements since many sc2 progamers still say they miss money from more more than a year ago. Also the number "46 000 dollar" comes from ESL if im not mistaken? They are not really what i would call objective. Fine, so you just think they're liars. You're allowed to have that opinion but I don't see why you're in this thread. If every explanation and story they offer is going to be met with "you're a liar" then any discourse with you probably won't be terribly productive.
You lay words like liar in my mouth. I just said those numbers aren´t objective, which they aren´t. You have to be a fool to completely rely on only one parts "facts" in a drama like this.
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Doesn't MLG have 0 delay in handing out their cheques? Of course, their prize pool is much smaller but I am still not understanding the huge discrepancies: it takes one company 0 days and another company 90 days? Please explain, thanks!
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On November 04 2011 06:50 wxwx wrote:
Doesn't MLG have 0 delay in handing out their cheques? Of course, their prize pool is much smaller but I am still not understanding the huge discrepancies: it takes one company 0 days and another company 90 days? Please explain, thanks!
Like he said in the OP, MLG has piles of cash sitting on hand. Very few leagues have that.
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On November 04 2011 06:45 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:36 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
How about players start requesting interest let say 5% their winnings monthly if ESL is late (after 90 days, if player has given bank account of course). This should make ESL much quicker.
Not sure about other countries but 5% interest on US dollars is downright usury. Current interest rates are flirting with 0% on pretty much everything except the most jackpot investments.
Lol? When you don't pay your debt, the bank comes and takes your house and other stuff (mortgage or something)
And if it's in the mafia bussiness, you are dead....
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On November 04 2011 06:48 Carmac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:47 darkest44 wrote:
So everyone that said they hadn't gotten money from esls for a 6 months to 1+ years is just lying and its only 3 months max? Kinda find it hard to believe that many people would lie. No, that's not what my post says.
So you do or do not own money to players past 90 days?
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On November 04 2011 06:50 wxwx wrote:
Doesn't MLG have 0 delay in handing out their cheques? Of course, their prize pool is much smaller but I am still not understanding the huge discrepancies: it takes one company 0 days and another company 90 days? Please explain, thanks!
I think it has to do with MLG funds. I think MLG makes majority of its money from itself, not including sponsors. I think for other tournaments majority of its money is gained directly from sponsors.
And because MLG's in AMURRIKA!
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So basically, you're saying it will be paid. Cool...
Why is it that MLG pays out right away, and ESL doesn't. The whole 90 day thing is BS, and nothing stops you from going over that time period anyways.
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On November 04 2011 06:48 Carmac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:47 darkest44 wrote:
So everyone that said they hadn't gotten money from esls for a 6 months to 1+ years is just lying and its only 3 months max? Kinda find it hard to believe that many people would lie. No, that's not what my post says.
Your posts says that you try to pay it out in 90 days, but if you don't, it's cool. Nothing will happen anyways.
I mean, you guys don't want to take longer.. so it's A okay!
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EPT
