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On November 04 2011 05:07 Carmac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 05:03 Adebisi wrote:
Can you explain what ESL is doing to make this go away? Or at least your goals as to how fast money should be paid out, and when you think your events will be able to pay out that quickly? It really depends on what money goes in, what goes out. Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities.
If you want to run a successful business this is really not the way to approach the situation. I don't know what your organization strive for but anyway:
If you (ESL) want to reach out to sponsors by showing off large audiences and ad exposure and what not, you should be aware that the players are one of the prime attractions. Before, and maybe currently, these players have little choice but to play in non perfect tournaments.. but this is changing as more tournaments appear, the players can choose not to participate in ESL and spend their time elsewhere, followed by the viewers.
Catering to the players and teams are therefore one of the most important activities to maintain a long term survival.
Average price money payment time should be one of a few keys to measure your performance to catering the players. You need to compare it to similar tournaments, and also against the players expectations if you want to be highly regarded.
So... to appease us...
1) Please go back and find out what the average payment time is
2) Find out what the desired state is (arrive at a number of days)
3) Look into what can be done to reach this desired state
And finally, 4) share us something more detailed than what you did, so we can see the intent rather than the current excuses.
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On November 04 2011 06:47 tabbott26 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:41 Serashin wrote:On November 04 2011 06:30 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:22 Loooui wrote:On November 04 2011 06:14 Klondikebar wrote:On November 04 2011 06:11 Loooui wrote:
This is by NO means an acceptable excuse. There were many examples in Clouds thread that was just downright disgusting behaviour from ESL. Just an example here, Grubby had to wait 3 years (LOL) for a win from 2007 before he got prize money from ESL. Like tyler said, money actually declines in value over time. You guys need to revalue the prizes after inflation when it goes over 90 days, otherwise you don´t pay your debts.
Paying some prize money years after deadline is a joke. Worst part is that you cannot give an example of what you are doing to solve the problem. ". Most likely ESL will be catching up slowly via normal ESL day to day activities." is NOT enough. It's 2011 (almost 2012) now buddy. Citing an incident almost 5 years ago is hardly proof that today's ESL is running things poorly. And yes, as their revenue picks up and their payout system becomes more efficient, their day to day activity will catch them up. Also, for the record, their outstanding payments represent 0.46% of what they have currently paid out in total, they really don't have far to go to "catch up." Oh so since they dont pay for 3 years you cannot be citing it? They payed back the money ONE year ago, so i wouldn´t call it outdated by any means. Also, how can you be so sure that their payout system becomes more efficient? What kind of proof do you have? Do you work there or what? If its been like this for years, and they think the problem basically solves itself is just naive. Also where did you get the number 0.46% from? would be interesting to know since a lot of progamers came out and told us that ESL still owed them money. Convert Euros to dollars and add it to their current USD "debt." They owe approximately $46,000. 46000/10000000 = ~0.46% And that problem with Grubby stemmed from how things were run back in 2007. Documents get lost and things get forgotten. It's not surprising that once it fell off the radar it took the 2010 ESL to fix it. If anything that's indicative of how the improvements in the league have allowed them to catch up and correct past mistakes. My proof that their system is good and getting better? Players keep going to their tournaments. ? to the last line , thats more called the influence of propaganda and stupidy the smart players and very notable ones dont attend , i do not know how the IEM / ESL influence is meaning i do not know how they are split or formed together , but i do know that the current ESL excluding IEM about wich i dont have enough intel is totaly a organisation that has to fall. But given how Carnac posts and how it works together the odds are 80 / 20 that Carnac is for the 80 % chance a corrupt buisnessman , or the 20 % he gets abused. only taking stuff in account that is visible , invisible realistic options i keep quiet about. Wow, someone's in bad blood about Carmac. What happened?? And for the record, here's the player list for Cologne last year, Cologne this year, Guangzhou & New York (considering MLG Orlando was taking place at the same time).I'd hardly call that a list of players who aren't smart or well known...
no bad blood , more like killing time while playing a game thats called "buisness" its pretty popular in real life you know.
will sleep now and check when i got time again on updates or i find something more interesting  but this stuff is just to crystal clear and very bad propaganda ^^
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On November 04 2011 06:54 LovE-z33k wrote:
So basically, you're saying it will be paid. Cool...
Why is it that MLG pays out right away, and ESL doesn't. The whole 90 day thing is BS, and nothing stops you from going over that time period anyways.
If you read above, its because MLG already has money on hand, something rare for tournament. (though i think MLG's financials is something a lot of other tournament should copy).
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I bet it's aTn that's not paying their players. Incoming Socke team change.
In any case, I'm sure most of us appreciate what you've written but it's nothing we don't already know. What we want to know is how you're fixing things and what could be done to improve this issue. Look into ways to reduce that 90 day time, you know? Discussion.
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Also @carmac, a lot of the posters are semi-angry, but I think I speak for everyone that we're glad that you're at least opening a line of communication to TL community.
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On November 04 2011 06:57 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:54 LovE-z33k wrote:
So basically, you're saying it will be paid. Cool...
Why is it that MLG pays out right away, and ESL doesn't. The whole 90 day thing is BS, and nothing stops you from going over that time period anyways.
If you read above, its because MLG already has money on hand, something rare for tournament. (though i think MLG's financials is something a lot of other tournament should copy).
Having a lot of venture capital?
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Some of the people posting here are really aggressive, but then again it is a delicate situation, good to get and update on it from you Carmac
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On November 04 2011 06:54 LovE-z33k wrote:
So basically, you're saying it will be paid. Cool...
Why is it that MLG pays out right away, and ESL doesn't. The whole 90 day thing is BS, and nothing stops you from going over that time period anyways.
It has been repeated 1000000000000 times !
MLG had a lot of venture capital thrown at them this year, something like 10,000,000$, so, well, obviously they will be able to pay instantly, in the other hand, ESL depends on sponsorship money...
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On November 04 2011 06:57 wei2coolman wrote:
If you read above, its because MLG already has money on hand, something rare for tournament. (though i think MLG's financials is something a lot of other tournament should copy).
Venture capital is not something everyone should copy.
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On November 04 2011 06:48 Carmac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:47 darkest44 wrote:
So everyone that said they hadn't gotten money from esls for a 6 months to 1+ years is just lying and its only 3 months max? Kinda find it hard to believe that many people would lie. No, that's not what my post says.
To just the first section:
You say "up to three months," but you know it is very often they wait almost the full 3 months or more.
Then you talk about paperwork, but if my company was planning an event in X country I'm pretty sure we could handle preparing the paperwork (since we already know the prize money payout system because we created it!) ahead of time, so that there would only be a few blanks to fill in.
I have no clue about your sponsors payment schedule, but you can't mean to tell me that they offer to sponsor X event, and put zero dollars down ahead of time right? Meaning that there is some money in the pot beforehand, which should probably be reserved for the players and down payments for event costs while the event organizers pay should come secondary. Now, perhaps the event has quite a bit of upfront costs, and we won't ever actually know how much a sponsor gives and when, but I doubt your paycheck is missing for more than a day 
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On November 04 2011 07:00 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 06:57 wei2coolman wrote:On November 04 2011 06:54 LovE-z33k wrote:
So basically, you're saying it will be paid. Cool...
Why is it that MLG pays out right away, and ESL doesn't. The whole 90 day thing is BS, and nothing stops you from going over that time period anyways.
If you read above, its because MLG already has money on hand, something rare for tournament. (though i think MLG's financials is something a lot of other tournament should copy). Having a lot of venture capital?
Well, its technically not longer "venture' because MLG's pretty old now, a few years old. But having "cash on hand" is very important, at least having the cash prizes that you already promised.
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On November 04 2011 06:54 LovE-z33k wrote:
So basically, you're saying it will be paid. Cool...
Why is it that MLG pays out right away, and ESL doesn't. The whole 90 day thing is BS, and nothing stops you from going over that time period anyways.
As above, basically MLG is almost self sufficient (they make most of their money from Memberships/ Spectator/ player passes etc. so they have a load of cash ready to dish out there and then.
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On November 04 2011 05:39 th3rogue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 05:33 Enhancer_ wrote:
Also wondering what happens when you go over the 90 day, self-imposed time limit.
Another major concern was how so many pros were iterating that they had to consistently hunt down the tournament managers on their own to collect prizes rather than having the tournaments take responsibility and contacting their champions. How is this dealt with? In most of our tournaments players are contacted soon after a tournament by email for their details. In my experience, many of the times a player says they were not contacted, they were but did not see it in their email (or additionally ESL site message) etc. For example Darkforce's Dailymotion prize money is unpaid because he did not see the emails (for which I have now contacted him to correct). For some (e.g. EPS, and IEM at least in the past, not sure with the new format) the prize money details are given in advance by the players or managers.
Understandable for sure. Thanks for the answer.
Please don't skip over the first question I asked regarding the consequences of going over your guy's 90 day limit though .
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On November 04 2011 06:11 Loooui wrote:
This is by NO means an acceptable excuse. There were many examples in Clouds thread that was just downright disgusting behaviour from ESL. Just an example here, Grubby had to wait 3 years (LOL) for a win from 2007 before he got prize money from ESL. Like tyler said, money actually declines in value over time. You guys need to revalue the prizes after inflation when it goes over 90 days, otherwise you don´t pay your debts.
I agree that some interest should be added on payments that take such a ridiculous amount of time. Where I work we start adding interest for every day over one week. That's obviously not reasonable here given the size of the company I work for and the size of most eSports companies but if you're going to set 3 months as the cut off for a reasonable/unreasonable amount of time for payment, it's only fair that interest should start accumulating after that date.
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I wonder who the team was that withheld money from the players.
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I have to say that I'm impressed to see tournament organizers stepping up to explain their side of things.
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This problem reminds me of those stupid websites that make you click ad's and they never ever payout. But good to hear you guys are taking responsibility. I find what Cloud did was exactly correct because if companies aren't paying it will only ruin E-sports. Keep your heads high, You made a mistake.. and as white-ra would say. MORE GG MORE SKILL.
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I do not agree with the way ESL has treated some winners of their cups, but a lot of people on this forum replies without even understanding what Carmac wrote.
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On November 04 2011 07:07 pewpew444 wrote:
I wonder who the team was that withheld money from the players.
Speculation with the info from Clouds thread:
Team Alternate... (Socke, DarkForce, Cloud)
And Cloud was in MYM last year (not sure but i think they had also a record of not paying correctly)
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On November 04 2011 04:57 Carmac wrote:
b) ESL is not blameworthy every single time (not to take blame away or anything, but to shed more light on the issue). A team or participant registering for ESL tournaments normally specifies the recipient of prize money - it can be a person or a company ("pro gaming team"). It can happen that the team withholds it from the player(s) without them being aware of it. I was told about such an issue today, actually (you'd be surprised who…).
Since there was a call to arms by SotG to out tournaments that are bad about paying out, there should be a similar call for transparency from the team side. If there are pro-gaming teams that are withholding cash from their players, they should be outed.
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EPT
