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On November 01 2011 01:34 Special Endrey wrote:I heard from quite a lot of players, that there where a lot of problems with paying out prize money too. I even helped some getting in contact with admins/sponsors esp when there are language barriers involved and tournament admins are not beeing able to proper communicate. Still, this is not always the tournament organizers beeing super greedy. Sometimes you as an organizer make a contract with a sponsor and they simply don't pay up in time. So this leaves the organizers in a hole of shit. Becasue they are blamed by the players and the general audience (/r/pitchfork anyone? hehe) for sponsors not holding on to signed contracts. I am not saying this is always the case, I don't even know if this is the majority or the minority. But I am saying that it is not always that simple. So beeing to fast on judging people/tournaments, might not always be the best idea  Still, this thread absolutly deserves attention, it is good that it is not that one sided.
Fair enough, but we as the people can hold the sponsors equally accountable. For example...
Dr Pepper gives out free soda at MLG
Mountain Dew sells AMP for 5 dollars at IPL
Which product am I going to support with my soda drinking? Dr.Pepper, cause they <3 e-sports.
If sponsors aren't paying out money, they don't <3 e-sports and we shouldn't <3 them.
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On November 01 2011 01:33 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:54 eXigent. wrote:
I personally would seek legal methods regarding the bigger sums of money. Threatening to take these companies to court in a case where you will 100% win, they will have no choice other than pay you now, or risk going to court and damaging their companies name. I feel as though they think they can push gamers around because we do not have anyone backing us legally. I would most certainly persue that route if someone owed me 2000 euros. K so you pay for a lawyer to take them to court and you win. Now pay your lawyer and a 30% tax on the winnings. Congrats you earned 4 Euros and 23 cents.
Well you already had to pay the 30% regardless, no?
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On November 01 2011 01:28 DoomsVille wrote:
I don't think many of you realize the consequences of actually blacklisting tournaments.
Blacklisting an event leads to it's eventual shut down. You have to remember, most of these events do eventually pay. ESL is notorious for taking forever to pay, but they do pay. An event that takes a year to pay is better than no event at all.
Honestly, there is only one solution... there needs to be a kespa-like organization formed. One that can ensure that players aren't wasting their time/energy/money going to events where they won't be paid. Events need to be able to provide proof that they have the necessary funds to pay players before anyone commits to going. There needs to be a governing body that can speak on behalf of all foreign and Korean proteams. This won't work unless everyone agrees.
im sorry but I completely disagree with the first part(i like your 2nd idea tho)
If someone has to wait a year to get 2000 then it is completely not worth it and the tournament deserves to be shut down
and If you disagree then you must not pay any bills or have a job because anyone old enough would know that 2000 over a year is nothing when you can make twice that in a month
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This is so disturbed its insane, I remember the CS and WoW people talking about IEM taking ages to pay though a long time ago but i figured they shaped up :S
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On November 01 2011 01:33 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:54 eXigent. wrote:
I personally would seek legal methods regarding the bigger sums of money. Threatening to take these companies to court in a case where you will 100% win, they will have no choice other than pay you now, or risk going to court and damaging their companies name. I feel as though they think they can push gamers around because we do not have anyone backing us legally. I would most certainly persue that route if someone owed me 2000 euros. K so you pay for a lawyer to take them to court and you win. Now pay your lawyer and a 30% tax on the winnings. Congrats you earned 4 Euros and 23 cents.
Yeah the cost of filing the case and just paying the lawyers are likely more than 90% of your winnings anyway.
This is definitely a thread that needed to be made, don't take up your pitchforks just yet, but the more players we have coming forward with who is/isn't paying in time, the more we can find out which are repeat offenders and which are just isolated instances.
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Finally someone made a thread about this, almost started to feel like it was a forbidden subject or something, props for Cloud for doing this! I guess pretty much every progamer has some tournament / cup prize money that they havent recieved, and im no different. Some change has to come to this I think. The oldest prize money im waiting are from ESL Nordic sc2 EPS 2011 and ESL Wc3 ENC 2010, so the other one is from year ago and the other one is from 1½ years ago, ofcourse theres a bunch of money missing from recent stuff aswell. I find it alarming that ESL is having so much problems with various different tournaments payments, I've queried them about these issues for several times, answer has always been "it will take a little more time", it all seems so complicated since as I've heard pretty much all different ESL tournaments have a different sponsor, its disgusting how something like this can take up to years. I hope some change comes soon!!!!
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I noticed playhem is very good about paying people. They are a small business i know but give credit where credits due.
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On November 01 2011 01:38 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:36 BoomNasty wrote:On November 01 2011 01:35 zeru wrote:I'm surprised that this many people dont know it is like this. But yeah it totally sucks. I remember there being talk on TL about this months ago and rakaka.se made some charts ![[image loading]](http://www.rakaka.se/images/7774-rakaka_prize_money.jpg) Can we all agree that MLG is the best tournament there is? Anything up to 2 months or so is acceptable imo, at least for big tournaments who rely on sponsor money, after 4-5 months it's pretty bad though.
Well, MLG does do halo and mw2 with higher prize pools and they pay out at the same time as the sc2 events. Especially since they said they are increasing prize pool for next year, I don't think payment period will change.
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You guys should have posted about this sooner. I knew some of it was going on, but didn't know it was this bad.
Every time a tournament gives you trouble in receiving the money you earned, you should start a public witch hunt. You don't have the time/effort to waste trying to convince people to give you the money they owe you, you should just tell the community (reddit, TL) and let us crowd force them into doing the right thing.
It's 100% completely unacceptable for them to not contact you, without any prompt on your part, and give you the money in a timely fashion. If they don't "have the money yet", they shouldn't have held the tournament yet.
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On November 01 2011 01:33 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:54 eXigent. wrote:
I personally would seek legal methods regarding the bigger sums of money. Threatening to take these companies to court in a case where you will 100% win, they will have no choice other than pay you now, or risk going to court and damaging their companies name. I feel as though they think they can push gamers around because we do not have anyone backing us legally. I would most certainly persue that route if someone owed me 2000 euros. K so you pay for a lawyer to take them to court and you win. Now pay your lawyer and a 30% tax on the winnings. Congrats you earned 4 Euros and 23 cents.
Low sum cases like this are pretty straight forward and your average lay person can do it. Even if they cannot, free legal advice is usually available in the form of charitable bodies at least here in the UK (an easy example being the law center.). People need to start holding dishonourable tournaments to account, if no one does anything, nothing will change.
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this is awful .... but it does make me appreciate GSL,MLG,IEM, etc. that are professionally run and not screwing people over
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I have a revolutionary idea: Don't give them big checks on stage, give them real checks! Or stacks of bills, that would be impressive too!
On a more serious note, this is pretty unacceptable as most people have said. I think what Cloud did bringing awareness to this issue is probably a big step in starting to fix this though.
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On November 01 2011 01:22 Zocat wrote:
Funny that one the same day where Cloud decides to go public with that carmac posts on his twitter "More likely than not we are witnessing "the SC2 bubble." It's not too overblown but still. Caution is advised." and "Many teams and some leagues will get horny and step out of bounds.".
Maybe he should put his own house in order first before saying that kind stuff...
Anyone that doesn't realize this is a bubble is idiotic. You have a bajillion tournaments springing up everywhere, small cups/dailies/weeklies.
The small cups realized hosting events is cheap. It costs almost nothing to host a GO4SC2. The investment is time/money. The payoff a few months ago was great. You would have thousands watching for less than $500 an investment. And so everyone started copying their model. And this was fine. Everything was working great.
But then one day the big companies realized content is cheap to produce. IPL, NASL, EGMC, and even MLG recently found out online tournaments are cheap. They do talk shows, interviews, news programs etc. etc. etc. They cost peanuts compared to large events and they pay off in spades. They broadcast on a very regular basis now and they dwarf over all the small cups/tournaments. You can have big names playing in a playhem/z33k tournament but no one will watch because they'll see some random IPL/NASL/EGMC/MLG broadcast on or some rebroadcast or some talk show.
The bubble is starting to collapse. The small events are realizing the viewers aren't there anymore. The Craftcup has already shut down. Most streamers can't get anywhere near the numbers they used to get. And hosting large events is almost as futile because every single weekend there is a major event.
TL;DR - There are too many events now. Some of them are going to collapse. It is just a matter of time.
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On November 01 2011 01:40 ToguRo wrote:
this is awful .... but it does make me appreciate GSL,MLG,IEM, etc. that are professionally run and not screwing people over
Did you miss the part where IEM was complained about?
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On November 01 2011 01:30 skipgamer wrote:
Actually, I just had a thought, has anyone tried contacting Blizzard about this? They do give tournaments licenses to play SC2, perhaps some kind of system can be set up where if there is a certain % of players not receiving prize money from a tournament, they aren't provided with a tournament license until all debts to players are made.
Blizzard are in the perfect position to disallow tournaments to host their game. It could even be seen as a good marketing move (especially in recent light of their decisions) to be the first e-sport that could guarantee tournaments pay their players.
I hope someone with an ear at Blizzard at least mentions the idea.
This is like the most reasonable solution i read in this thread.
But if you get to hear stuff like balance designers not even watching GSL its hard to believe that Blizzard follows on the main pillars of the game.
so we got BeSPA i guess.
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Stop going to these tourneys. Community no longer needs them. You pros should collectively protest ESL, ESWC etc if they don't pay, and instead go to events that should.
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All SC2 tournaments need a licence from Blizzard to actually use SC2 for the tournament so could blizzard be the regulator for this, make a clause of using SC2 at an event be that you have 3-6 months say to pay the money or your in breach of contract/license and then legal action can be taken? just a thought.
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Its really a shame to see how ESL is still paying out so late.
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Yeah this is pretty bad. I think two or four weeks should be the longest anyone waits. If they take longer than that, they can pay interest.
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EPT
