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On November 01 2011 03:06 driftme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:53 Teiwaz wrote:
2.) Big tournaments have huge business behind them. Players have to understand the bureaucracy behind all that and that it actually takes some time for those companies to get the payment done.
Yes, big tourneys do have big business behind them. Yes, there is bureaucracy in any large business, but there is also still an accounting department that has to handle accounts payable, usually on a net-30 or 60 basis for something like this. [EDIT: Just to clarify im talking about a business submitting payment for advertisement or a sponsorship of an event, not paying tournament winners. When a business sponsors an event, the payment is usually expected from the sponsored entity on a net 30/60 basis, if not before the event. Granted, I've never run an esports sponsored event, but I've dealt with many different types of organizations, sponsorships, and events, and thats how it works in the non-esports world.] Its not like the tournament ends and then the tourney asks the sponsors to pay the players. The sponsorship costs go toward things like the advertising and signs you see around, and then the organizers use that money to pay the players. There is a paper trail and generally accepted accounting practice for this type of stuff. That's not a valid excuse for the organizer. Also, bigger tournaments are put on by organizations that DO have money.. they should be able to have the money in place to pay the players ahead of time, especially with the lead time for the larger tournaments. Its not a logistics problem, its an issue of the organizers not holding true to their word. Of course there are situations where a payment doesnt go through correctly or something, and mistakes DO happen in even the best accounting departments.. but those mistakes are generally caught before "closing the books". Things have to balance out =]
I'm not saying that you should accept a ridiculously long waiting period. But up to 3 months is legit IMO. And even you stated that a waiting time of 30-60 days for the SPONSORS to pay their debts is nothing out of the ordinary.
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Korean players would have an even harder time to get their money i suppose then?
With the language and distance barrier, even longer the time they need as the reason eh?
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On November 01 2011 03:10 luuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:07 Tivo17 wrote:
Question to the pros and people that are in this situation:
Did you sign a TOS, Contract, or any other form of waiver before competing in the tournament/cup?
If you did post it here or at the very least look at it and see if there is a time period. If you did not sign one of these "contracts" the cup or tour is likely not liable to pay you anything let alone with in a reasonable time frame.
Do not play in a tournament that does not have the rules, TOS, and/or contract laid out in front of you before you sign up. the real problem is, even if there is a legal document. what is a legal document in esports right now? would you consider taking legal steps against a tournament provider because, lets say, they didnt pay you your ~x00 € in time? its a hard topic :/
It would all depend on the event. If it was a small event with a very limited prize pool, I would not even waste my time with it in the first place. If it is an org like ESL then yes because it would do 2 things: 1. Get my money (no matter how little) 2. Establish a precedent for them to hold up to other players and let them know they can not fuck around with this shit. That will also send a message to other organizations. A legal document is binding and if a time period is put on prizes or anything within that document that both parties agreed to it is binding and must be upheld.
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On November 01 2011 03:10 Klondikebar wrote:
I get the feeling most people in this thread don't understand how slowly money moves through a big company. There are TONS of checks and safety measure to make sure money doesn't slip out the door. There are billions of dollars flying around internally, they're going to have some sticky ass fingers.
Going from Sponsor to tournament to player can realistically take a disgusting amount of time.
Players should obviously be paid in a timely manner, but just arbitrarily saying "players should be paid in 1 month" just doesn't sound very informed.
I get the feeling that some people don't understand how easily money can move around in or out of a large organization if you have the proper reasons for it.
I'm sure ESL doesn't wait 6 months to pay the venues and other expenses of their tournaments.. but for the players, they just delay it because they can.
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There's definitely a lack of an enforcing organ amongst the SC2 players and competitive gamers in general, something the tournament organizers know. I suppose the "industry" is far too little to have some kind of union that could work with the players as clients as of yet, but it sounds like it's definitely needed. Maybe some kind of organisation among the teams themselves could be doable, where every team could have a representative that could "meet" with the other teams' ditos to coordinate actions to frighten the tournament organizers a little.
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this "90days + is reasonable ..." thing, when i park my car wrong and get a ticket, if i write to my city i need 90+ days to pay ... man you can imagine what happen ^^
90 should be maximum better 60 as maximum cause 2 month are a long time in esport
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On November 01 2011 03:12 Seronei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:11 Xoronius wrote:On November 01 2011 03:09 TORTOISE wrote:On November 01 2011 01:43 Quasimoto3000 wrote:
I am 100% for blacklisting events that are known not to pay up to players. How is it possible that the ESL is still being frequented by players? If they are notorious for not giving out prize money, IMO they should have been blacklisted since the first incident. Because, like the players said, they give out the money, they just do it horribly late. I don´t know, why so many people keep saying, that they would´nt pay at all. Have they paid out the money to Na'vi for the the 2008(?) season yet?
I am no ESL employee, I can just repeat, what Idra, Darkforce, Carmac, etc. said. I don´t know about this specifik case.
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On November 01 2011 03:12 Dr_Jones wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:05 ReachTheSky wrote:On November 01 2011 03:02 Dr_Jones wrote:
Am I completely bonkers for thinking that this is a managerial issue, that should be dealt with by the team managers for the players involved? It just seems odd that it isnt a bit more professional than this :/ Yes you are completely bonkers  . I think what would be a bit more professional is organizations paying money out within reasonable timeframes. I obviously agree with that, but as Carmac had been saying they were providing a 3 month delay for most of their tournaments. I guess this is to allow enough time to deal with all the paperwork involved with moving money around internationally (as Joshy.IGN pointed out, some countries are quite restrictive about such thing *cough The US cough*) But, why doesn't the player talk to the team manager, who then talks to the tournament manager, and resolve the issue this way? Obviously doesn't work with every small daily online cups, but for the the big name organised ones this would seem a minimum requirement? Again, I might be bonkers for expecting it, but it just seem like this would be way more professional (than posting on TL.net). I hope we reach that stage at one point in eSports, because that's when it becomes truly credible in my view
Just throwing this out there, most Non-Korean team managers actually do very little managing. I think I have dealt with one foreign team manager ever (Naz with Liquid, who is awesome) in all my time doing foreign events. I know Scoots is active with EG but most other team managers never would get involved in something like this.
Why? The hell if I know, but it seems to be an issue all in itself.
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This is nothing new and doesn't shock me at all frankly.
For me MLG sets the standard for HUGE events. No two ways about it.
ESEA, although they are getting a lot of shit for their SC2 division (even if its deserved) actually pays their prize money out quickly. They do even use a check... They actually pay out in CASH at the LAN finals. I am unsure about how they do the SC2 Payouts but I would assume it is just as quick (if someone actually knows and can correct me on this please do).
It is also nice to read that NASL also pays out quickly. It surprises me that MORE players don't put priority in events that THEY KNOW will actually pay out the prize money quickly and/or efficiently.
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On November 01 2011 03:12 ThisGS wrote:
Carmac said that everything till IEM cologne is payed out.
They are in the process of paying out iem cologne and its 3 months ago.
why all this shitting on it?
it thats true i dont see any reason for a "boycott" or so...
EPS and ESL Cups is a different story obv.
Did Huk finally get his payment from IEM Cologne?! :OOO
It's pretty disgusting that they take this long to pay out considering that these guys do it for a living. UK e-sports scene got pretty much destroyed because i-series/ukesa were so unreliable.
IMO there needs to be some kind of standard (around 90 days?).
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I think this practice is deplorable, seriously organizers, get your shit together!
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On November 01 2011 03:14 dinmsab wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:10 Klondikebar wrote:
I get the feeling most people in this thread don't understand how slowly money moves through a big company. There are TONS of checks and safety measure to make sure money doesn't slip out the door. There are billions of dollars flying around internally, they're going to have some sticky ass fingers.
Going from Sponsor to tournament to player can realistically take a disgusting amount of time.
Players should obviously be paid in a timely manner, but just arbitrarily saying "players should be paid in 1 month" just doesn't sound very informed. I get the feeling that some people don't understand how easily money can move around in or out of a large organization if you have the proper reasons for it. I'm sure ESL doesn't wait 6 months to pay the venues and other expenses of their tournaments.. but for the players, they just delay it because they can.
That's probably because those venues are paid up front, not after the fact.
Even when companies do pay after the fact you'd be surprised how long it can take them to pay for basic services.
Again, just to be clear, players should be paid in a timely manner. I just want to point out that there's more red tape involved than people realize.
And I really really doubt that tournament managers are sitting in their evil lairs cackling about how they tricked players into playing at a tournament for free.
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Hmm this is horrible for anyone considering of trying to make a living off of sc2. We gotta unite or something or get the pitch forks out and do something about this. We just need someone to organize the community!
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I don't think you guys realize how it works, the real culprit is the sponsors themselves not the leagues... also paying money internationally is always a hassle when its a "prize" because of taxation problems.
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On November 01 2011 03:09 TORTOISE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:43 Quasimoto3000 wrote:
I am 100% for blacklisting events that are known not to pay up to players. How is it possible that the ESL is still being frequented by players? If they are notorious for not giving out prize money, IMO they should have been blacklisted since the first incident.
Likely 2 reasons:
1)for the most part people have said that ESL does pay EVENTUALLY, that's more than you can say for a lot of events.
2) Different ESL tournaments are likely run by different organizers in cooperation with different sponsors, IEM for instance appears to be reasonably current (within 3 months of the event) as was mentioned by carmac and corroborated by the fact that no players have listed an IEM event in their posts, mostly just other ESL events (EPS, weekly/daily cups).
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The fact it had yet to be talked about is nearly as shocking. Clearly this was a norm nobody was trying to change. Cheque/Cash payments are good especially at LAN. Online I could imagine being troublesome, but there are lots of multi-national banks.
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On November 01 2011 01:53 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I updated my list with approximate amounts of money owed, might be slighty off in some instances:
Dailymotion Cup 200$ or €
EPS Season 17 ~450€
EPS Summer 2011 ~300€
Dreamhack Winter 2010 BYOC Qualifier (3000 SEK ~ 320€)
Epiccup invite turnier 50$
Virus invite turnier (100 or 150)$
IPL Season 2 400$
WCG National Finals (Hardware prize)
GeForce Pro Turnier 1575$ + hardware
TheGreat Showmatch hardware
Zotac Monthly Final September 500€
16.10.2011 Polarfluke OPtoberfest ~340$
19.10.2011 ESL Monthly Final September 500€
I did PM you regarding this, but I feel you have not played your part in the discussion and I have the right to say what I must say now.
How exactly do you expect us to pay you? Did you bother to send me your payment details before I had to PM you earlier for them? Did you even read the tournament rules that are in place?
Here is an excerpt from our Rules, updated on 13/10/2011:
Payments (Added 13-10-2011)
South African players must submit their banking details from their registered e-mail address
Non South African players must submit their PayPal details from their registered e-mail address
All prizes are paid in ZAR and thus the estimated USD value may be different to that stated on the tournament page due to currency fluctuations
Players must submit their payment details within 2(two) weeks of the end of a tournament to receive their payment else the prize will be forfeit
Once the 2(two) week period is over, all payments will be processed
I did tell you after reading your OP that I would still make your payment even though you had failed to adhere to the rules of the tournament.
This is absolutely ridiculous that you are including tournaments from 2 weeks ago; while I do support talking up about tournaments and hosts that have an extremely long wait time, you are causing damage to guys like me who do actually pay up. I work my ass off to host monthly tournaments with good prize pools. I spend hours upon hours in meetings, trying to get more money into my tournaments and with one or two posts you are able to wrongfully ruin a reputation my organization has earned.
PolarfluKe has been running since May 2010 and we have run 18 tournaments for Starcraft II. Every tournament is paid up in full except for the tournament we hosted 2 weeks ago(15-16 October). If you had bothered to read the rules regarding payments (which I was forced to add because it takes players too long to send their payment details), I explicitly state how the payment structure works now.
Do not lay blame on myself or my organization for payment not received when you can not adhere to simple rules.
Did you bother to send your payment details to anyone in that list?
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On November 01 2011 03:15 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:12 Dr_Jones wrote:On November 01 2011 03:05 ReachTheSky wrote:On November 01 2011 03:02 Dr_Jones wrote:
Am I completely bonkers for thinking that this is a managerial issue, that should be dealt with by the team managers for the players involved? It just seems odd that it isnt a bit more professional than this :/ Yes you are completely bonkers . I think what would be a bit more professional is organizations paying money out within reasonable timeframes. I obviously agree with that, but as Carmac had been saying they were providing a 3 month delay for most of their tournaments. I guess this is to allow enough time to deal with all the paperwork involved with moving money around internationally (as Joshy.IGN pointed out, some countries are quite restrictive about such thing *cough The US cough*) But, why doesn't the player talk to the team manager, who then talks to the tournament manager, and resolve the issue this way? Obviously doesn't work with every small daily online cups, but for the the big name organised ones this would seem a minimum requirement? Again, I might be bonkers for expecting it, but it just seem like this would be way more professional (than posting on TL.net). I hope we reach that stage at one point in eSports, because that's when it becomes truly credible in my view Just throwing this out there, most Non-Korean team managers actually do very little managing. I think I have dealt with one foreign team manager ever (Naz with Liquid, who is awesome) in all my time doing foreign events. I know Scoots is active with EG but most other team managers never would get involved in something like this. Why? The hell if I know, but it seems to be an issue all in itself.
Because most manager's are just lazy bums that like to feel important by being called a manager ;P
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I think it's ok to pay players within 3 months, we don't expect to get the money right away (but if we do we're happy and will most likely attend the next tournament). Problem is here we're speaking about not getting the money within much longer time frames or not getting prizes at all. Some people can be really unprofessional, especially in the local scenes, and I have witnessed terrible things during the past years I've been involved in esports.
I'll tell you guys something disgusting that happened recently in WCG Italy. The company responsible for WCG in Italy told everybody there would be two Starcraft 2 slots available from the italian live qualifier for the Grand Final in South Korea. Since the competition is not that high in Italy and I'm the only known international player in the country everybody was aiming for the second place slot and many people came for this. During the tournament, when the semifinals were about to be played, they informed everyone they changed the number of people going to Korea to 1 for Starcraft 2. They took away the prize from many people wanting it. In the end I qualified and the second place (StarEagle, very good italian player, worthy of representing the country in WCG Grand Final) got absolutely nothing. They took away the prize from him during the tournament he was playing. Problem is players feel powerless and we don't know what to do except informing people in this manner.
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On November 01 2011 02:35 Carmac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:08 iNcontroL wrote:
idra had to threaten to not play esl events any more to get paid for something he was owed over a year ago O_O Except IdrA threatened about prize money which was paid out, except he hadn't noticed ;-)
but do you have an answer for the other players here who are all complaining about ESL's lag in payments made?
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EPT
