EPTAre you worried about the skill ceiling in SC2? - Page 5
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On October 29 2011 21:17 Toadvine wrote: Posting Automaton 2000 videos in response to allegations of a low skill cap in SC2 is completely missing the point. In truth, I wonder if the people doing really believe it's a real counterargument. The point isn't whether you can make fast units do better with a level of control completely unattainable by humans. This will always be true no matter what. But how useful is that? How useful is a pro separately controlling his Zerglings by running into Tanks? Does it make sense to allocate his APM there, instead of on other tasks? To me, it very clearly seems useless, it will do nearly nothing and they will have wasted all their effort. To say that "Zergling micro against Tanks has a very high skill-cap", while technically true, is misleading and stupid. It cannot be done by a human to any noticable effect, period. In BW, sending a few Lings forward by themselves to soak up the first volley was the extent of it, but Tanks don't overkill in SC2... Now, if you take something like multi-dropping as Terran, then you have a situation where spending more time and attention on controlling your multiple drops will always give you real benefits, while still having an enormously high skill-cap - like that Corsair/Reaver video of Bisu people were posting in the other thread. This is something SC2 needs more of. Well, that, and bio units being a little worse, so not controlling the drop can actually be punished... On topic though, I do think that it's not unfeasible to reach the realistic skill-crap of Protoss in the near future. There's simply not enough opportunities for a Protoss player to show amazing play. This exactly. People are taking the skill ceiling concept too literally. It's obvious that nobody has achieved or will ever achieve the literal skill ceiling. The real problem is that lesser players can achieve almost the same efficiency doing far less then a greater player. The zergling example mentioned illustrates exactly this. That is also the reason why a Plat player with 80 apm can take a Master player with 160 by doing an 1-base all in. | ||
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LetoAtreides82
United States1188 Posts
On October 29 2011 18:07 Mise wrote: The true skill ceiling of SC2 is humanly impossible to reach. To achieve the skill ceiling you need to macro perfectly and micro invidual units through the whole game. You can't play that fast you'd need thousands of APM. I agree completely. Even with vanilla SC2 the skill ceiling will be impossible to reach by any human, including the gods of BW. Perhaps a well-programmed machine, 20 years from now, can reach it. Today's AI is simply not good enough. | ||
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LetoAtreides82
United States1188 Posts
On October 29 2011 22:40 petro1987 wrote: This exactly. People are taking the skill ceiling concept too literally. It's obvious that nobody has achieved or will ever achieve the literal skill ceiling. The real problem is that lesser players can achieve almost the same efficiency doing far less then a greater player. The zergling example mentioned illustrates exactly this. That is also the reason why a Plat player with 80 apm can take a Master player with 160 by doing an 1-base all in. No true Platinum player would regularly beat a true Master, only the rare surprise win is possible and that'd be only because the Master didn't scout properly which would be a rare thing for a Master to do. | ||
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Sporadic44
United States533 Posts
There's no way to ever reach the cap. Sure players will dominate for awhile, but thats the nature of competition. It doesn't mean they've unlocked god mode. My hope is people will be pleasantly surprised as the competitive scene continues to grow, the meta-game continues to shift, etc. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On October 29 2011 18:09 tyCe wrote: Spellcasters are actually easier to micro than normal units to get the maximum use out of them. For instance, marines have to be babysit because they are so fragile, yet they have amazing mobility and dps. On the other hand, a spellcaster like an infestor will already be worth its cost once you smart cast a few fungals off. No amount of micro will make a spellcaster more efficient once it's run out of energy. Of course, they may decide to add in more combat-spellcasters, which would have the best of both worlds. I think spellcasters just add to the volatility of the game. Your concentration slipped once or you were just paying attention to something else? Then you'll lose your whole army and no amount of great macro can save you. | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Starcraft 2 doesnt have the same shitty UI and possibilities brood war did, making it 10x harder to do simple things (8 units to a control group, etc) That doesnt mean that its easy, it means the players arent working hard enough or finding the things they are capable of doing now that they dont have to worry about that brood war stuff. 300 APM in brood war -> able to micro/macro effectively 300 APM in SC2 -> that and limitless potential. You havent seen whats to be had in SC2 yet because its so young, broodwar didnt fucking turn up yesterday you know. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
Most aspects of the game still have no skill ceiling. IMO it's better to lower the skill ceiling on the things that have one rather than raise it, so the focus of the game can actually be on the things which have no skill ceiling. I'd imagine in sc2 it's possible every player in a tournament could have %100 perfect macro one day, and seeing who comes out on top in that situation and why is really exciting to me. | ||
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DeadBull
421 Posts
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
On October 29 2011 18:20 aebriol wrote: That the mechanical skill ceiling is lower than in brood:war is not in doubt. Have we reached it yet? I don't think so. It will be interesting for example to see someone with sick brood:war skills play pure blink stalkers for example. ... that is, of course, assuming not 98% of brood:war pro's chose Terran because it is perceived as the stronger race. If Jaedong and Bisu switch .... then we find out they picked Terran Im going to cry | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
On October 29 2011 22:40 petro1987 wrote: This exactly. People are taking the skill ceiling concept too literally. It's obvious that nobody has achieved or will ever achieve the literal skill ceiling. The real problem is that lesser players can achieve almost the same efficiency doing far less then a greater player. The zergling example mentioned illustrates exactly this. That is also the reason why a Plat player with 80 apm can take a Master player with 160 by doing an 1-base all in. well right now MVP has been dominating every single player in the world except losing to MMA 1 series.... so I'm pretty sure Flash etc. will be just as dominant .... not worried I don't understand why people act like anyone is close to MVP because no one really is I am going to lol if Flash/Bis/Jaedong come out and says the skill gap is fine and no one is playing correctly yet. | ||
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KingAce
United States471 Posts
SC2 was designed to be noob friendly, that's not an esports mentality at all. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
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canikizu
4860 Posts
For example, if you're a chef, and you can cook meal for 5 people at the same time. If each of them only order 1 or 2 dishes the number of 5 remain the same, you will reach your skill ceiling, and so is the next guy, and the next next guy. But if there're 50 people you need to cook for, and each of them order even 1,2 meal, you will need much more skill to cook for those, while the next guy will fail off. So although you two can cook the same menu, the same food, and keep up with each other for a while, the difference will show clearly later on. Talk about BW, in some of the earliest days, the map didn't even have naturals, how much skill ceiling you think you can have with just one base? In the early days of competitive BW, players didn't even make bunker, cannon, colonies because their army can cover both base just fine, but later on, you see how boat loads of cannon and colonies Zerg and Protoss have to make in each base? The game will evolve because of outside factors.Your skill will go up because there's a demand of it to go up. | ||
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00Visor
4337 Posts
On October 29 2011 22:48 LetoAtreides82 wrote: I agree completely. Even with vanilla SC2 the skill ceiling will be impossible to reach by any human, including the gods of BW. Perhaps a well-programmed machine, 20 years from now, can reach it. Today's AI is simply not good enough. You totally don't get the point. Of course you can't be perfect, but if the skill ceiling isn't very high, you don't benefit a lot from being better than your opponent if you only can use your additional skill to micro some marines and have some seconds of less production downtime. Than the winner will most likely be determined by "luck" (build order wins, timings, catching units, etc.). Only in some matches the actual skill difference will matter. I think the concerns are valid, but so far I still see a lot of potential. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On October 29 2011 17:54 TheBomb wrote:And for example if we compared say the reaver/shuttle micro of SC1 with Colossus micro in SC2 it doesn't even begin to compare. SC1 micro was much more challenging, but also had much bigger rewards. We are now seeing something along those lines with the warp prism/high templars and this is actually great, but compared to SC1 micro you are quite limited. I don't want to insult you for having pointless arguments and a less than useful point of view, so I'm just going to ask you not to compare BW and SC 2. You were not the first and you won't be the last and all of you have nothing to add to the discussion except trying to undermine SC 2 each time you can. I wish I could downvote people like you. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
Do you all remember the computer controlled zergling split video that let them beat a huge terran siege line easily and all it took was thousands of APM. So until I see perfect ling splits with perfect macro and perfect decision making becoming a standard the skill ceiling is fine and we should worry way more about balance. The 1-1-1 is an example of a highly imbalanced strategy but no player who has ever played the game, even in such tough times, has ever stopped being rewarded for being better. They just may not be getting rewarded enough to win under these severe circumstances. | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
So instead of mechanical skill, why don't we discuss tactical skill? In a game like Starcraft, tactical skill has virtually no skill-cap. | ||
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