EPTSo by making an impossible game worthy of legends, it just wouldn't click, why do you think SC2 iis EXPLOTING right now?.
Just because is accesible dude.
Easy to get into, really hard to master.
That's the way I like it.
Are you worried about the skill ceiling in SC2? - Page 7
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Rafael
Venezuela182 Posts
So by making an impossible game worthy of legends, it just wouldn't click, why do you think SC2 iis EXPLOTING right now?. Just because is accesible dude. Easy to get into, really hard to master. That's the way I like it. | ||
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OhMyGawd
United States264 Posts
Protoss will be the first race to hit skill cap and that will cause a huge collapse in protoss play since they cannot improve anymore. Terran i think will be the first to hit to skill cap after that since the mule is so noob friendly, there would need to be a call down cd like inject or else it will crush Terran in the long run. The micro of terran will surpass zerg and protoss but i think there will be a limit to how much the human body can do. Zerg should be the last to hit the skill cap. With injects and creep spread begin much harder than mules and chrono that will take a while to perfect. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12025 Posts
Terran i think will be the first to hit to skill cap after that since the mule is so noob friendly, there would need to be a call down cd like inject or else it will crush Terran in the long run. The micro of terran will surpass zerg and protoss but i think there will be a limit to how much the human body can do. See, now I don't really think a cooldown on mules is a good idea, we need to save energy for scans and if we come to the point where we don't need the scans anymore, we can use the energy. The difference between inject and mules is light and day. Mules gives you minerals sure, but then you mine out quicker, Inject has a cooldown as the ability has to happen over time. Instantly getting like what, 9 new larva would be hella OP late game, you could just reinforce your whole army in seconds and crush whatever opponent as they wouldn't be able to build up as fast as you. Heck, look at late game zerg now, lose most of your army and reinforce with 100 lings from all that larva you have saved up. Then you go and win as long as you had a favourable engagement beforehand. Also, queens have Tranfuse which too many pros still don't use late game (especially Transfuse on fighting ultras/broods/mutas etc) so it could be favourable to save energy for that late game when your larva pools up anyways. The game is still largely undiscovered, especially on the protoss side of things. | ||
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SiaBBo
Finland133 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3481 Posts
And in a strategy game, i don't really care if i see a player with surperior mechanics losing to one with inferior ones. I actually get happy, cuz that means outwitting, is more of a factor, than tapping your toes. The one good thing hard mechanics does offer though, is consistency. | ||
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BlueBoxSC
United States582 Posts
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On October 30 2011 00:25 ejozl wrote: The thing is, smarts has no skill ceiling. And in a strategy game, i don't really care if i see a player with surperior mechanics losing to one with inferior ones. I actually get happy, cuz that means outwitting, is more of a factor, than tapping your toes. The one good thing hard mechanics does offer though, is consistency. There is a limit actually because it's a strategy game with limited information (like poker). At some point just the random luck of choosing the correct the build order against the other player could outweigh the "smarts" of the player. Not saying it's headed that way yet, but there is a ceiling. | ||
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
Anyway, I really wouldn't worry about skill ceilings until we actually get there. In the meantime just enjoy watching/playing sc2. You might not enjoy it as much as bw but for me it seems entirely fair and entertaining that a player can win by outwitting, outmacroing or outmicroing his/her opponent in sc2. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On October 30 2011 00:32 teamsolid wrote: There is a limit actually because it's a strategy game with limited information (like poker). At some point just the random luck of choosing the correct the build order against the other player could outweigh the "smarts" of the player. Not saying it's headed that way yet, but there is a ceiling. Well, I guess the information was also limited in BW. The question is how much you can read out of your scouting information. Edit: Ok I answered a little bit away from your posting. Regarding the skill ceiling. It is also not sure if the skill ceiling in scouting can be reached. | ||
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
On October 30 2011 00:32 teamsolid wrote: There is a limit actually because it's a strategy game with limited information (like poker). At some point just the random luck of choosing the correct the build order against the other player could outweigh the "smarts" of the player. Not saying it's headed that way yet, but there is a ceiling. ...And yet we see the same people winning poker tournaments again and again. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
Look at any sport and the history of that sport. I'm not worried about the skill ceiling at all. It doesn't even slightly worry me. | ||
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
Code 'A' games are often laughably bad with blunder after blunder being traded between opponents - and these are among the best players in the world! Once the game gets past the opening builds and into the decision making phase, human beings, even the best trained pro-gamers, do not have the multitasking of managing multiple bases, engagements, scouting, macro, micro, harass, planning, anticipation - everything needed to play "Perfectly." At any moment there's 20 things to do yet pro-gamers have micro-seconds to evaluate and decide. Under those constraints the most well trained mind WILL make mistakes, lots of them. Put money on the line, and for many of these players their livelihoods - and highly trained pros make mistakes that even gold players would not make in the comfort of their living room. Its the nature of sports or E-sports. The idea of a skill ceiling is in itself, flawed. There's no such thing. We're not playing pong. There's so many decisions needed, so much to do, in so little time, 300 APM is necessary just to cover the simple acts of producing units and microing your army in battle. The drop I had planned? Too busy right now. Expanding? No time, maybe later. Oh crap, I have 10 SCV's doing nothing. I just lost 4 ghosts!! ARGGHHHHHH I need a tech lab - have to start making vikings - Need another starport - Does he have Hive? Oh CRAAAAAAP, He's GOT BROOD LORDS!!!!! Skill ceiling? The best players in the world have their hands full managing the simple second to second decisions to keep up with the action. For all the blunders and mistakes they make, we're amazed at how much better they are than us. So have no fear. Until humans develop well past where we are, there will be no skill ceiling reached. | ||
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Tektos
Australia1321 Posts
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
Do you believe 100% efficiency has been achieved? I don't think anyone has come close. For example (and these are all directed at the highest level of play) Do we see zerg players using overseers to delay key production whenever they have extra money or are maxed and can't produce more units? They should be doing this every game, in every match up. Contaminating robo facilities, factories, starports, or enemy hatcheries. Do we see crono being used as soon as possible all the time? No, not even close. Keep in mind chrono is time, time can't be made up. Do we see OC energy being used ASAP all the time? No, sure a terran can drop 4 mules at a time, but unless they are about to take a new base (gold), that money could already be made and spent. Do we see terrans making scouting reapers throughout the game, no, instead of spending 50/50 they drop a scan that could be 270 from a mule. Do we see Protoss hitting all of their warp cycles and making plenty of obs, and using warp in harrass throughout the game? Sometimes, much more recently. Do we see zergs using overlords to spread creep throughout the game (even in the edges of their own bases)? No, we see overlords sitting idle in groups as early as midgame. Do we see zergs using nydus to get good positioning and help defend spread out bases? No, not often, it's common in BW though. Are hallucinations getting used enough? No, but we'll see a flock of sentries sitting idle with full energy. Do we see units clearing destructible rocks early when they are sitting idle? Sometimes. Do we see protoss always having proxy pylons around the map? Sometimes Do we see zergs using burrow almost every game, to delay expansions and keep map vision, or burrow banelings? Sometimes Do we see spellcasters being babied and players making sure they get the most value possible? No, I constantly see Templar getting wasted and not turning into archons when they could have, Infestors running around pointlessly dying after fungals, I think terrans are a little bit better about ghosts. Do we still see medevacs sitting idle waiting to die after a drop instead of returning home when the drop is cleaned up? yes Do we always see army's getting spread out, using flanking and the best positioning possible? Sometimes. Do we see zergs using transfuse, or doing burrow micro with roaches (blink style) to get the most out of every unit? Sometimes Do we see sensor towers getting used to always be in position to defend harassment? No, (some might argue this, but I doubt loosing workers or addons isn't worth the cost of the tower) Do we see terrans getting +2 building armor or pf/turret range upgrade when they are getting muta harrassed? Rarely Have gas timings been nearly as refined for all the races as they were in BW? Nope My hypothesis is that when we see more top BW players enter sc2, and the game has more time to evolve, most of the answers to these questions will change. I don't know how different things will be in HOTS, and legacy of the void. But when you really think about all the things I've pointed out, and the possibility of things no one has even thought of yet, do you still think anyone has come anywhere near the absolute skill ceiling in sc2? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5757 Posts
On October 29 2011 23:43 Sandermatt wrote: But what you say has nothing o do with a skill ceiling. The fact that you CANT do that means that the skill ceiling is unreachable, and you can always practice to get closer to that. You never run out of room for improvement. By the way, stephano was once like 60-1 on the ladder, so really good players can differentiate themselves on the ladder. Your post makes no sense whatsoever. So CAN'T get closer to those examples, because you CAN'T control two or more groups of units simultaneously. And those examples require you to control dozens of units individually, all at the same time. Not only is a human being incapable of mimicking them, but he's also not capable of making his imperfect effort give him any sort of advantage as as soon as he shifts his attention to another unit of his, his other units start clumping again. Not to mention he's limited by the input speed of the game... This "argument" is stupid beyond reason... ;/ | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
Don't be a fool. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On October 30 2011 00:42 maybenexttime wrote: Your post makes no sense whatsoever. So CAN'T get closer to those examples, because you CAN'T control two or more groups of units simultaneously. And those examples require you to control dozens of units individually, all at the same time. Not only is a human being incapable of mimicking them, but he's also not capable of making his imperfect effort give him any sort of advantage as as soon as he shifts his attention to another unit of his, his other units start clumping again. Not to mention he's limited by the input speed of the game... This "argument" is stupid beyond reason... ;/ The faster he can shift his attention between his units and issue commands onto them, the better he gets. | ||
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