Are you worried about the skill ceiling in SC2? - Page 8

On October 30 2011 00:34 Selendis wrote:



...And yet we see the same people winning poker tournaments again and again.

On October 30 2011 00:21 Qikz wrote:


See, now I don't really think a cooldown on mules is a good idea, we need to save energy for scans and if we come to the point where we don't need the scans anymore, we can use the energy.

The difference between inject and mules is light and day. Mules gives you minerals sure, but then you mine out quicker, Inject has a cooldown as the ability has to happen over time. Instantly getting like what, 9 new larva would be hella OP late game, you could just reinforce your whole army in seconds and crush whatever opponent as they wouldn't be able to build up as fast as you.

Heck, look at late game zerg now, lose most of your army and reinforce with 100 lings from all that larva you have saved up. Then you go and win as long as you had a favourable engagement beforehand. Also, queens have Tranfuse which too many pros still don't use late game (especially Transfuse on fighting ultras/broods/mutas etc) so it could be favourable to save energy for that late game when your larva pools up anyways.

The game is still largely undiscovered, especially on the protoss side of things.

On October 30 2011 00:10 Rafael wrote:
I'm not worried at all because , you are forgetting that there's only a small percentage of UBER PLAYERS , remember that the back bone of the community are normal skill players, like you and me.

So by making an impossible game worthy of legends, it just wouldn't click, why do you think SC2 iis EXPLOTING right now?.

Just because is accesible dude.

Easy to get into, really hard to master.

That's the way I like it.

On October 30 2011 00:53 alexhard wrote:
The quicker it becomes a game of strategy instead of a game of mechanics the better. Personally I find the idea of mechanical skill being impressive somewhat ridiculous. Yes it's difficult, but it's a rather rote exercise.

On October 29 2011 23:53 TheBomb wrote:

Yeah and Nestea and MVP were both mid B level players in Brood War. Now imagine the high B level players and their skill, then imagine A level players and then imagine S level players like Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Stork, etc... They are going to rip apart the game I feel and all possible things to improve would be small and insignificant sort of gimmicky things that don't really make you an advantage no matter how good you do them.

So my point is about diminishing returns. I mean microing 10 stalkers against 40 roaches is never going to work no matter how good you micro the 10 stalkers with blink. So my point is if you think the game will come to that level where yes you can do more things, but they are so gimmicky and do not represent real skill.

Another diminishing return example: Mircoing zealots against marine and marauders.

But ultimately I'm looking of how many high level micro/high level reward do we have in SC2?

In SC1 we had lurkers vs marines vs tanks vs dark swarm vs irradiate vs scourge, then you had firebats coming in late vs lurkers and zerglings, etc....
in SC1 we had shuttle/reaver vs terran or zerg either mineral line or armies, we had corsairs with disruption web in support of reaver/shuttle vs say in zerg hydralisks, zerglings and scourge.

In SC2 I can only think of marines and tanks vs zerglings and balenings vs fungal. And we see more tanks to counter infestors. Other is hellions vs zerglings and mutalisks vs marines, but notice how things stop within 3 to 4 units?

On October 30 2011 00:42 Reborn8u wrote:
The problem in the back of my mind with most of these "Sc2 skill ceiling" ideas, is that they assume there is nothing to be discovered. It's a false assumption in my opinion. This is also the same problem with peoples concepts of balance in the games current state. It's all about efficiency. So I'll pose a question.

Do you believe 100% efficiency has been achieved?

I don't think anyone has come close. For example (and these are all directed at the highest level of play)

Do we see zerg players using overseers to delay key production whenever they have extra money or are maxed and can't produce more units? They should be doing this every game, in every match up. Contaminating robo facilities, factories, starports, or enemy hatcheries.

Do we see crono being used as soon as possible all the time? No, not even close. Keep in mind chrono is time, time can't be made up.

Do we see OC energy being used ASAP all the time? No, sure a terran can drop 4 mules at a time, but unless they are about to take a new base (gold), that money could already be made and spent.

Do we see terrans making scouting reapers throughout the game, no, instead of spending 50/50 they drop a scan that could be 270 from a mule.

Do we see Protoss hitting all of their warp cycles and making plenty of obs, and using warp in harrass throughout the game? Sometimes, much more recently.

Do we see zergs using overlords to spread creep throughout the game (even in the edges of their own bases)? No, we see overlords sitting idle in groups as early as midgame.

Do we see zergs using nydus to get good positioning and help defend spread out bases? No, not often, it's common in BW though.

Are hallucinations getting used enough? No, but we'll see a flock of sentries sitting idle with full energy.

Do we see units clearing destructible rocks early when they are sitting idle? Sometimes.

Do we see protoss always having proxy pylons around the map? Sometimes

Do we see zergs using burrow almost every game, to delay expansions and keep map vision, or burrow banelings? Sometimes

Do we see spellcasters being babied and players making sure they get the most value possible? No, I constantly see Templar getting wasted and not turning into archons when they could have, Infestors running around pointlessly dying after fungals, I think terrans are a little bit better about ghosts.

Do we still see medevacs sitting idle waiting to die after a drop instead of returning home when the drop is cleaned up? yes

Do we always see army's getting spread out, using flanking and the best positioning possible? Sometimes.

Do we see zergs using transfuse, or doing burrow micro with roaches (blink style) to get the most out of every unit? Sometimes

Do we see sensor towers getting used to always be in position to defend harassment? No, (some might argue this, but I doubt loosing workers or addons isn't worth the cost of the tower)

Do we see terrans getting +2 building armor or pf/turret range upgrade when they are getting muta harrassed? Rarely

Have gas timings been nearly as refined for all the races as they were in BW? Nope

My hypothesis is that when we see more top BW players enter sc2, and the game has more time to evolve, most of the answers to these questions will change. I don't know how different things will be in HOTS, and legacy of the void. But when you really think about all the things I've pointed out, and the possibility of things no one has even thought of yet, do you still think anyone has come anywhere near the absolute skill ceiling in sc2?

On October 30 2011 01:20 Silidons wrote:

A shit load of things you posted are based on STRATEGY. I'm not going to chrono as soon as it's up because I'M SAVING IT! Same goes for terran OC's. Many terrans use Sensor Towers.

Things you are posting are from LOW TIER players. Show me how many times MVP left a medivac to die, for example.

Those are solely based upon APM.

You think there are more things to "discover" because you're relating this to BW. Sorry this game was made for the entire reason that BW was hard to pick up and play, and took years to even become a C or B player on ICCUP and many wouldn't even get that far. There are not many things to discover in this game because THEY MADE IT THAT WAY. It's not like BW.

On October 30 2011 01:15 KulterBaun wrote:
Yeah i think Sc2 is to easy and if you practice a couple of hours in one month you can basically perfect ur macro completely. Theres only so much you can do in sc2 in bw since the macro was way harder that problem never occured. As an example in sc2 if a protoss FFE's vs Z all he has to do is 4eeF1cF1c and build some buildings thats it. In a year or so if blizzard doesnt remove automining and maybe multiple building selections etc sc2 will be completely mastered. P.S If they shall remove multiple building selection they have to remove warpgates yaaaay

On October 30 2011 01:33 Chise wrote:
If you compare SC2 to other Esports like DotA, Quake or whatever, it's pretty safe to say that none of those games is even close to being as hard mechanically as SC2.
Yet, the skill ceiling isn't reached in any of those games.

I actually like that SC2 has "easy" macro. I don't want to watch machines playing, but smart people.

On October 30 2011 01:33 Chise wrote:
If you compare SC2 to other Esports like DotA, Quake or whatever, it's pretty safe to say that none of those games is even close to being as hard mechanically as SC2.
Yet, the skill ceiling isn't reached in any of those games.

I actually like that SC2 has "easy" macro. I don't want to watch machines playing, but smart people.