EPTAre you worried about the skill ceiling in SC2? - Page 6
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sh4w
United States713 Posts
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Naeroon
Canada166 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
It'll be a good day when we don't see infestors and high templar without energy rush forward to their doom unnecessarily. | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
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cuppatea
United Kingdom1401 Posts
On October 29 2011 23:08 KingAce wrote: Sc2 doesn't offer as much as BW does in differentiating skill between players. And unfortunately even the micro side of it isn't as skill based as it was in BW. SC2 was designed to be noob friendly, that's not an esports mentality at all. No, it was designed to have a high skill ceiling and be appropriate for competitive play (which it is), while also being accessible for lower skilled players so that, you know, people actually buy and play the game. I'm sure the hardcore BW enthusiasts would have loved the sequel to have 8 bit graphics and an antiquated UI but the game would have bombed everywhere outside of Korea (and maybe there too). As for there not being enough to separate top players in SC2, the win ratios between the elite in that game and BW are similar, as are the frequency of upsets. If there is enough in the game for guys like MVP and NesTea to separate themselves from the pack, why couldn't Flash, Jaedong and co. separate themselves even further? SC2 may have a lower skill ceiling than BW but it's one that will never be reached by any human being. The game has existed as an esport for well over a year now and we still see even the best players' play littered with mistakes, which will continue to be the case if/when we see the top BW players switch over. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
Then I'd like to see more powerful AoE so pros have to split their armies as balls are not that great to see, at least to me. | ||
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cactusjack914
United States183 Posts
Those micro videos are a terrible example. You CANT do that. You would have to be psychic and know which zergling the tank was going to fire at and split it. The point is lesser skilled players beat more skilled opponents in SC2. How often do 'progamers' who practice 12 hours a day lost to people on the ladder? All the time. How often would average joe beat a BW progamer? Probably never. If your playing the game for 12 hours a day there needs to be a significant difference between you and someone playing it for fun. I don't see how that fact doesn't bother people who watch SC2. as much as I agree with this, the game isn't as old as BW. I feel like Sc2 is a lot like poker, the person with the most experience usually wins the hand but isn't invincible. | ||
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On October 29 2011 23:33 sh4w wrote: Those micro videos are a terrible example. You CANT do that. You would have to be psychic and know which zergling the tank was going to fire at and split it. The point is lesser skilled players beat more skilled opponents in SC2. How often do 'progamers' who practice 12 hours a day lost to people on the ladder? All the time. How often would average joe beat a BW progamer? Probably never. If your playing the game for 12 hours a day there needs to be a significant difference between you and someone playing it for fun. I don't see how that fact doesn't bother people who watch SC2. But what you say has nothing o do with a skill ceiling. The fact that you CANT do that means that the skill ceiling is unreachable, and you can always practice to get closer to that. You never run out of room for improvement. By the way, stephano was once like 60-1 on the ladder, so really good players can differentiate themselves on the ladder. | ||
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ZerO_0
United States137 Posts
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sukarestu
Australia40 Posts
It's still very young, just around 2.5 years I believe Sc2 is a long way away from reaching anywhere near the skill ceiling There's just too much potential But if you were to assume the perfect player, capable of dominating anyone (Nestea, MVP, MC, Naniwa, Stephano) He will need a large pool of builds and tactics to counter every single style there is possible in Sc2 (lets face it that seems impossible) If that were to occur.. well then we have witnessed the ceiling | ||
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Fritts
Canada63 Posts
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LetoAtreides82
United States1188 Posts
On October 29 2011 23:33 sh4w wrote: Those micro videos are a terrible example. You CANT do that. You would have to be psychic and know which zergling the tank was going to fire at and split it. The point is lesser skilled players beat more skilled opponents in SC2. How often do 'progamers' who practice 12 hours a day lost to people on the ladder? All the time. How often would average joe beat a BW progamer? Probably never. If your playing the game for 12 hours a day there needs to be a significant difference between you and someone playing it for fun. I don't see how that fact doesn't bother people who watch SC2. Proof please. | ||
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Makotoo
Finland159 Posts
On October 29 2011 23:33 sh4w wrote: Those micro videos are a terrible example. You CANT do that. You would have to be psychic and know which zergling the tank was going to fire at and split it. The point is lesser skilled players beat more skilled opponents in SC2. How often do 'progamers' who practice 12 hours a day lost to people on the ladder? All the time. How often would average joe beat a BW progamer? Probably never. If your playing the game for 12 hours a day there needs to be a significant difference between you and someone playing it for fun. I don't see how that fact doesn't bother people who watch SC2. Surely you understand people use ladder most of the time to test things and hone builds so they lose a lot while testing if something is viable etc. I see top players mostly losing to other top players if they play seriously. Also there is so much stuff pro players still aren't doing that they should be doing and they eventually will be doing. For example I've never seen pro's do that even though it increases efficiency ridiculously. There are so many places for improvement and even pro's will say this is true. | ||
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TheBomb
237 Posts
On October 29 2011 21:11 AudionovA wrote: No, i really dont get this question. We already have super dominant players like MVP and NesTea, who still think they can play better. I really exited for the SC1 to SC2 switch but i wont worry about skill cap till i see it reached or someone comes really damn close consistently. Yeah and Nestea and MVP were both mid B level players in Brood War. Now imagine the high B level players and their skill, then imagine A level players and then imagine S level players like Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Stork, etc... They are going to rip apart the game I feel and all possible things to improve would be small and insignificant sort of gimmicky things that don't really make you an advantage no matter how good you do them. So my point is about diminishing returns. I mean microing 10 stalkers against 40 roaches is never going to work no matter how good you micro the 10 stalkers with blink. So my point is if you think the game will come to that level where yes you can do more things, but they are so gimmicky and do not represent real skill. Another diminishing return example: Mircoing zealots against marine and marauders. But ultimately I'm looking of how many high level micro/high level reward do we have in SC2? In SC1 we had lurkers vs marines vs tanks vs dark swarm vs irradiate vs scourge, then you had firebats coming in late vs lurkers and zerglings, etc.... in SC1 we had shuttle/reaver vs terran or zerg either mineral line or armies, we had corsairs with disruption web in support of reaver/shuttle vs say in zerg hydralisks, zerglings and scourge. In SC2 I can only think of marines and tanks vs zerglings and balenings vs fungal. And we see more tanks to counter infestors. Other is hellions vs zerglings and mutalisks vs marines, but notice how things stop within 3 to 4 units? | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
However, day9 put it well with this: apm not spent on stupid units is apm you can spend elsewhere. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On October 29 2011 23:43 Sandermatt wrote: But what you say has nothing o do with a skill ceiling. The fact that you CANT do that means that the skill ceiling is unreachable, and you can always practice to get closer to that. You never run out of room for improvement. By the way, stephano was once like 60-1 on the ladder, so really good players can differentiate themselves on the ladder. Well the arbitrary question floating around is how reach the USEFUL skill cealing is. Microing individual zerglings is ofcourse impossible for a human - thus an unreachable skill cealing. However this isn't really useful. Even though you have perfect ling micro against siege tanks - if you're basically that good, a player like Nestea can still beat you 50/50 as that micro isn't really enough to differentiate yourself from another great player.. I think that's the theory behind SC2 skill cealing being low. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
The skill ceiling has yet to be reached | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
Bad zerg players miss injections. It's not the MAKING units that's hard for zerg per se, but more the retaining an availability of larva. It was the same in BW, in that you needed to make sure you had the right amount of hatches at the right time and you were also constantly producing out of them. While terran can miss mules and just cast two at a time in the future, that may seem forgiving, but you have to consider that professional terran players base their infrastructure around their total income, so casting mules at the appropriate time is crucial to executing a build correctly Same thing with protoss. You could argue that if you build up too much energy, you could simply chrono two things, but a lot of protoss builds have their chrono boosts planned all the way up to the 20's or 30's, knowing for sure when and where they need to cast each one as a means to execute their timing properly. Something people also don't consider with "skill ceilings' is that yes, one could argue that eventually every pro player is expected to macro perfectly all game every game or he instantly loses. But also, what about professional players moving over who have 400+ apm? Supposing they only need a fraction of their true potential hand speed to macro perfectly, then as strategies shift and tactics evolve, you'll be seeing quad pronged drops, players using three seperate armies with casters and microing them extremely well. They'll find a way to stress their opponent's mechanics regardless of the game's limitations. | ||
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
You are comparing a not 2year old game compared to a decade+ one. You are comparing a fully expanded game to a game that still has 2expansions to go so there is still a lot of stuff that can be added. You are saying that a lot of stuff is automated but ever thought about the fact that you now have spare "clicks" left to do other stuff? It's not like you lose that crazy APM, instead of doing tasks like manually clicking your workers to mineral patches you can do stuff like creep spread. There are still a lot mistakes in pro-gamers their play so we are not even near the skillcap. Remember, pre gsl open season 2 people thought using marines vs banelings was suicide, then came MKP. It just takes time for all this stuff to be discovered. I doubt those awesome micro vids are from when sc1 was less then 2year old. | ||
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