EPTAre you worried about the skill ceiling in SC2? - Page 4
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On October 29 2011 19:56 TheBomb wrote: Fair enough, although I missed my point a little bit in that of course you can never reach the full ceiling its humanly impossible, but what I was thinking more is along the lines of diminishing returns. Sure blinking 10 stalkers perfectly vs blinking only 5 perfectly is going to gain you an advantage over the zerg's 30 roaches, but its not something really of importance and you could use that time instead of microing just building more units and thus you are limited in the micro opportunities you have ! If you look at cycles in SC2 ----micro----------------- ------macro------ In BW ------micro------ -----------macro------------ In BW your macro limits your micro more In SC2 macro limits your micro less. This says nothing about a skill cap. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
This obviously mean that skilled players take the luck factors out of there games and makes wins happens, bad players don't take such elements out of their play. So a big flux of cheesy build that requires luck is not comming, and relying on cheesy builds will just get you to code b. | ||
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Arush
Canada80 Posts
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
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shinarit
Hungary900 Posts
On October 29 2011 20:08 karpo wrote: My thoughts on this is that this thread adds nothing new to the endless amount of discussions on the same topic that's been going on for more than a year. Beside that your macro mechanic examples are very flawed. This should be the end of the thread. Pointless discussion. The fact that things that cry for automating are automated in SC2 doesnt take away any possibility. If i dont have to click every building for training units i can use those clicks to make 2-3 FOCUSED attacks at the same time. In a complex game there is no such thing as skill ceiling. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On October 29 2011 19:24 Sandermatt wrote: I am very happy that all the points you want to remove are in the game. I know many of the BW players like it when a player trains hard to do tasks that can easily be automated, but I and many others do not get excited by this. You are used to the BW mechanics, but would BW be a more exciting game for you if the macro mechanics were even harder? If the control groups were smaller? I didn't play BW, but I know that certain ai features are in it, like the ability to attack move or that once a worker is given the order to mine he continues to mine, you do not have to order him to go to the mineral patch every time. Do you think this features make the game worse or are you happy that they allow the players to spend their APM to other tasks? It is all about finding a balance between what's automated or easy and what's not. I feel bw did just that damn near perfect to get an easily playable and understandable game, while still maintaining a very pure expression of human conduct through the game. Taking automated features out of the game doesn't make it a worse game. SC2 isn't completely automated either, though it would be easy to make it that way. So does that mean blizzard made it worse? No, they also tried to find that perfect balance to the game when it comes to automated or easy functions. The max 12 unit/control group isn't a technological problem. It's a limit. Hacks were made in bw for terrible player to overcome this. However, blizzard is trying to serv a very wide audience with this game. As do most companies with their games these days. They make their games easier for them to appeal to a wider audience. You ask "Do you think this features make the game worse or are you happy that they allow the players to spend their APM to other tasks?". I've already answered the first part of that question, but I'm not sure as to what "other tasks" you're referring to. No matter how hard macroing is, you can still lose everything with a bad engagement. Microing isn't all of a sudden a more important aspect of the game. | ||
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komokun
France343 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280421 I'm not worried one bit about skill ceiling. Top tier players are consistent enough. Players slumping like MC a few weeks ago can't blame anyone but themselves. He really was playing terrible at one time and got punished for his mediocre play. Now that he got his shit back together he is competing at the highest level again. All the top tier player have very good macro (but still not perfect) and there are a few different styles represented althouth these differences might not be as strong as in BW's. Huk and his micro management, MVP and his systematic safety, Bomber/Idra's heavy macro and multitask, Stephano's 6th sense for efficient engagements... Each player still have a lot to learn from their fellow pro gamers. We will see how the best RTS player pool of korean BW will do in SC2 but I can't imagine anyone perfecting every aspects of a game with as many variables as SC2. SC2 design is still at its early stages. Let's wait for a bit, I'm sure we will see true S-class player emerge in the next few month. Most top tier players are still showing improvement over time and the game, as "easy" as it looks for BW fans, haven't been figured out at all. This antagonism between BW and SC2 is getting tiresome. As a fan of both, I really don't think it helps each community teach the exciting aspect of "the other" game to each other... | ||
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two.watup
United States371 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45979 Posts
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
But my point is that I'm really worried about the skill ceiling and is it big enough and hard enough never to master or this one of those easy to learn, not that hard to master? Name a sport or esport which is not too hard to reach the skillcap. Right, there is no such sport. In competitive play, the endless variability and the chance that someone will outcraft you is the very nature of why it's so fun to watch the games. No footballer knows all the moves, no chess-player will always remain unbeaten. The question is; is that a bad thing? Since already 90% of the SC2 community is unable to reach the skillcap, and most players are still enjoying it anyway (because they fight people who are around the same level of skill) I don't see any problem with adding new and deeper properties to make the game's ultimate skillcap rise. In fact, I think it's a good thing. Also, there will always be a little bit of luck involved, but that's just how fog of war and vision range work by nature. | ||
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Intact
Sweden634 Posts
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On October 29 2011 18:41 Gotmog wrote: No i am not worried. You people just have to start thinking for yourself. You are comparing collosus micro to reaver micro ? Well, yah you can't do that. Lets start with macro. We are no where near the ceiling . Terrans are queuing units like crazy! Zergs are missing injects, missing tumors, stacking thousands of minerals in mid/late game... Micro is so horrible right now. What is stopping terrans from microing reapers up/down the cliffs on 1 expo, while doing blue flame medivacs (watch lucifron's medivac shooting micro). What is stopping protos players from manually using charge ? What is stopping HSM and people splitting only 1 unit to escape it rather then running the whole flock of "mutas" from it? People complaing so much about clamping. Yet, we see Protoss using 1 hotkey, terran's not using hotkeys at all other then for drops and early game, zergs using up to 3 hotkeys... What is stopping you to use ~7 hotkeys, to split your army. To avoid those fungals, spread your army across entire map, etc etc. How about doing something like focus void ray on each ultralisk (for example...) so they can charge up, instead of focus targeting ? Can't wait for BW pros to switch. They might be able to use all that 50% extra speed they have (that they don't use on macro in sc2) on actual micro all around the map. Lets see what will happen to this game with 7 unit control groups.... Also, if you look at the units we are getting in HoTs this game will become harder to micro. All in builds are getting weaker. Maps are getting bigger... I agree whole heartedly with this. Every big engagement has so many instances of poor unit control. Immortals shooting Zealots, zealots trapped behind stalkers, roaches too far away for the entire group to shoot... My biggest pet peeve is casters with no mana being sent to their death because they were in the same control group as fighting units that got a-moved in (and the player is relying on the caster casting spells to override the a-move command). Multi-prong harass is also an obvious area where people just don't have the APM to do everything they want. How many players have a dropship just sitting behind a mineral line fully loaded because they were too busy micro-ing elsewhere? How often to players lost an expansion because they couldn't defend two places at once? There's a long way to go skill wise before anyone should worry about the skill cap. | ||
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Kuja
United States1759 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
The point isn't whether you can make fast units do better with a level of control completely unattainable by humans. This will always be true no matter what. But how useful is that? How useful is a pro separately controlling his Zerglings by running into Tanks? Does it make sense to allocate his APM there, instead of on other tasks? To me, it very clearly seems useless, it will do nearly nothing and they will have wasted all their effort. To say that "Zergling micro against Tanks has a very high skill-cap", while technically true, is misleading and stupid. It cannot be done by a human to any noticable effect, period. In BW, sending a few Lings forward by themselves to soak up the first volley was the extent of it, but Tanks don't overkill in SC2... Now, if you take something like multi-dropping as Terran, then you have a situation where spending more time and attention on controlling your multiple drops will always give you real benefits, while still having an enormously high skill-cap - like that Corsair/Reaver video of Bisu people were posting in the other thread. This is something SC2 needs more of. Well, that, and bio units being a little worse, so not controlling the drop can actually be punished... On topic though, I do think that it's not unfeasible to reach the realistic skill-crap of Protoss in the near future. There's simply not enough opportunities for a Protoss player to show amazing play. | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
But, we have to think positively, right? No one wants to sit and just think about the possible outcome instead of seeing it happen right there in front of your eyes. When these BW pros switch to SC2 we will see where the skill ceiling truly stands and hopefully it will make Starcraft better than it already is. | ||
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
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