EPTwe will never see anybody being able to pull off things like this
Are you worried about the skill ceiling in SC2? - Page 2
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hehe
United States132 Posts
we will never see anybody being able to pull off things like this | ||
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WinteRR
Australia201 Posts
If there was a low skill-ceiling, MVP and Nestea would not have 3 GSL's each to their names. This post is really, really negative and I detest such threads greatly because 101% of it is heresay. | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
The truly good players can macro exellent, control their units perfectly and always engauge well, harrass, scout and expand. Oh and when players start doing these things guess what gets added to the list? Defend harrass. Its an infinte circle that insures SC2's skill has no ceiling. | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
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Kroml
Turkey308 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I like their approach, while bw you had a granted your units are 60% better in defense bonus resulting in what bw is today. Blizzard in sc2 tried to give the units the ability to get 60% better if microed correctly and since micro should become an important factor and because they wanted to renew the mechanics they had to adjust the game. I don't want to write a 10 page article about sc2 micro. But i think its rewarding enough and the skill ceiling micro wise is really high and unreachable by a human imo, and not about microing 1 unit good while everything else a moves (micro in bw looks awesome yes, but if you look at the units that are unmicroed you just want to facepalm to what they die, just send out to hope there is nothing to defend). Sc2 is about controlling your army in multiple areas, to maximize the effect of the attacks. If you can micro at two areas at once you can beat every opponent with ease that only can micro their deathball. And even in battle most units have skills if you use them your army is way better, while microing one unit is worth nothing. Best example might be the marine, that is worthless unmicroed. So macro is easy, and more people can micro well, but that means the people that did that before can now micro in 4 places instead of in 2 and that is an huge awesome to look if you have multiple cameras advantage :p. So i wouldn't worry about the skill ceiling its not reachable just like it is in bw. And easy to learn hard to master applies to sc2 as well even more then it did to broodwar. And A teamers won't switch to fast to sc2, kespa would need to pay money to blizzard, which means the salaries would be smaller then bw. Micro wise i think sc2 is harder then bw by far, atleast i find it easier to micro a reaver shuttle then to blink micro my 30 stalkers hehe. And a few people already start to play sc2 as if it wasn't bw, where you only had to macro and a move, and since they win alot i guess they do something right. | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
You people just have to start thinking for yourself. You are comparing collosus micro to reaver micro ? Well, yah you can't do that. Lets start with macro. We are no where near the ceiling . Terrans are queuing units like crazy! Zergs are missing injects, missing tumors, stacking thousands of minerals in mid/late game... Micro is so horrible right now. What is stopping terrans from microing reapers up/down the cliffs on 1 expo, while doing blue flame medivacs (watch lucifron's medivac shooting micro). What is stopping protos players from manually using charge ? What is stopping HSM and people splitting only 1 unit to escape it rather then running the whole flock of "mutas" from it? People complaing so much about clamping. Yet, we see Protoss using 1 hotkey, terran's not using hotkeys at all other then for drops and early game, zergs using up to 3 hotkeys... What is stopping you to use ~7 hotkeys, to split your army. To avoid those fungals, spread your army across entire map, etc etc. How about doing something like focus void ray on each ultralisk (for example...) so they can charge up, instead of focus targeting ? Can't wait for BW pros to switch. They might be able to use all that 50% extra speed they have (that they don't use on macro in sc2) on actual micro all around the map. Lets see what will happen to this game with 7 unit control groups.... Also, if you look at the units we are getting in HoTs this game will become harder to micro. All in builds are getting weaker. Maps are getting bigger... | ||
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Notfragile
Greece713 Posts
Although I am going to offer my honest opinion. About macro: + Show Spoiler + Macro in SC2 can be more forgiving. Yes, if you have 75 energy, you can drop the 50 energy mule. You didn't lose it. BUT, the guy who dropped it at 50 energy will have another rax made before you. He will have an expansion earlier. A missile turret to kill one of your drops earlier. Forgiving means that you are not totally screwed if your mechanics are not absurdly good. Goody should not be top GM and we all know it. BUT, is a guy like this is never going to be able to compete toe to toe with one that has his perfect macro. And to have perfect macro, is nothing that SC2 players are even close to at the moment (just see what MVP or NesTea do with their obviously imperfect macro, to all other players whose macro "sucks" compared to them). Another example is this: Take the standard muta/ling/bling. What is the difference between DRG and all the other zergs? Just watch one of his games. DRG is constantly using his mutas. There is no period in time, larger than 10 sec, where his mutas stop actively harassing the opponent. The other zergs stay much less active. Sure the mutas are flying around to find another point of entry, but they are not being constantly actively harassing with them. With the, by a large margin, better mechanics of the BW pros, this "dead muta" period can be 3 or even less seconds of inactivity while macroing. Don't you think this would give them a clear edge over the competition?? About micro: + Show Spoiler + Now guys I think you are really joking. Who said the micro skill cap in SC2 is close to be reached? When every protoss out there uses his HTs in one bloody hotkey, begging for a "game over" EMP?? When every zerg out there has just now started splitting his army while attacking to minimize tank splash losses?? When the HT warp prism while in a big engagement usually fails because of low APM?? When every terran has medivacs and MM in one hotkey so the medivacs are always further back when retreating and they get sniped all the time by stalkers?? (When with HOTS there will be a LOT more opportunities to micro -viper, moveburrowbanes, slow hellion positioning, etc-) These are only examples. But you have to remember that we are used to seing stuff like that happen all the time. This could NOT be standard. A 400 APM BW pro could at some point of refinement be able to spread all his HTs at the same time while microing the whole army. He could increase the effectiveness of his engagements by a lot when attacking with lings. He could say "fuck you ghosts" with an active HT-prism. Somewhat incorrect analogy, trying to explain my point of view: + Show Spoiler + In BW you had to fight against the UI as well as the other player. Let's create a unit of measurement. I will call it the Flash, which represents the skill in both macro and micro of Flash. Let's say we have a player X playing BW at 0,5 Flash. This guy can play the game and achieve a 50% of what Flash does. The same guy playing at SC2 plays at 0,5 Flash. This guy can achieve a 80% of what Flash does. (because the game is more Forgiving) But when someone plays at 1 Flash, will he not be able to play better than the 0,5 Flash guy?? At the moment most of the players are still relatively low in the Skill Capped scale, that's why the game is so volatile. TL;DR: SC2 is more forgiving. The scene is made of players of lower calibre. Macro/micro flaws are not so devastating to a player, when both players have those flaws. If someone is definately better than someone else, he WILL win both in BW and in SC2. Edit: Also what Gotmog says above my own post | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
not even close. We've not yet to see what sc2 has to offer, especially in terms of potential micro. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On October 29 2011 18:29 hehe wrote: those control videos are impossible for a human to do those are pretty much TAS videos i can post the same thing for broodwar. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNpy8Wnvf7g + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcjQhig88wE we will never see anybody being able to pull off things like this Agreed, and these videos are also completely beside the point I feel. As I see it, the question is whether or not the game allows for total domination. I think it's hard to tell man, but it does seem like the game is way way way easier to master due to: Clean way points Multible building selection Smart casting (Almost) unlimited control groups Queue up buildings Double rally for zergs This is literally what I'm asking to make me have faith in SC2: Remove everything I just mentioned. And remove the artificial macro mechanics and the unit ball pathing aswell. Afterwards, Browder go nuts! I don't care which units you put in the game. It doesn't have to be a copy of bw for me to like it, but I do have a certain way I've come to expect a game named StarCraft to function. Now this is just my stupid opinion of what would make me play the game, and how it would allow the players who should dominate to dominate. | ||
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GettinMyFill
Australia37 Posts
With the oncoming switch, these players will set the standard for play. They will go beyond that of your average SC2 professional and surpass that of MVP. Just the sheer fact alone that they will go beyond the already mighty skills of people like MVP, Nestea, shows that the skill ceiling is high in StarCraft II. If it wasn't, MVP would already be invincible. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
For example as Zerg you can have 50 larva all at once and produce 100 zerglings all at once and it doesn't force you to build units all the time and pressure your opponent, it creates this cushion where even if you weren't macroing all that well the past minute you can just fall back to your 20 or 50 larvae from before when nothing was happening. This is completely wrong any way you put it. If you aren't maxed, there are limits to how much the game "forgives" your bad macro. For terran, it kinda doesn't forgive not building units, but it heavily forgives not using mules (up to 200 energy). For protoss it doesn't forgive not building units, and it sorta forgives not spending chrono boost up to 200 energy. For zerg, it does not forgive forgetting injects (macro wise. Sure you can dump that energy on transfusions/creep tumors, but the production capacity you lose when you don't inject will never return), and it does not forgive having more than 2 larvae at one hatchery. Here a little calculation about zerg: Larva build time: 15 seconds Inject time: 40 seconds (producing 4 larva) Queens get 25 energy (needed for injection) every 44.64 seconds. So assuming you macro perfectly with your Queens (as in keeping their energy to 0 all the time), you miss out on 3 larvae your hatchery would produce every time you inject so you basically lose little more than 40% of your production capacity even though you macro perfectly with your Queens. This could be 40% more Zerglings! Not very forgiving, is it? Now imagine missing every second injection cycle and having 3+ larvae at each hatch half the time. Suddenly you don't have 7 larvae every 45 seconds but 3.5 larvae each 45 seconds. And i bet on low diamond and lower league players to be way worse than this when they leave their comfort zone of the first 5-8 minutes where they play as practised and suddenly have to start playing and not just repeating. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On October 29 2011 18:58 GettinMyFill wrote: Completely irrelevant thread based on incorrect assumptions. The skill ceiling is incredibly high in StarCraft II. The reason that BW is harder is because the better RTS players are playing this game. This means that the level of competition and skill required to compete with the best is higher. The macro mechanics, lack of smart casting, all that, is related to this, but it is not the over-arching factor related to this topic. It is, that the better RTS players, are playing BW. With the oncoming switch, these players will set the standard for play. They will go beyond that of your average SC2 professional and surpass that of MVP. Just the sheer fact alone that they will go beyond the already mighty skills of people like MVP, Nestea, shows that the skill ceiling is high in StarCraft II. If it wasn't, MVP would already be invincible. You're trying to predict an unknown future here, but I hope you're right. | ||
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Atj
Sweden17 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
wait, no. MVP and Nestea is clearly dominating sc2 scene consistently. There goes your skill ceiling theory | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
On October 29 2011 19:03 Atj wrote: show me a 20+ min perfect game and then i agree , until then, no Show me a perfect scv/marine 4 min game and i will agree....not even that exists. | ||
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GettinMyFill
Australia37 Posts
On October 29 2011 19:02 XsebT wrote: You're trying to predict an unknown future here, but I hope you're right. Is it actually possible for it not to come true? MVP, while great in BW, was not at the same level as Flash, Jaedong, and probably 10 more current BW professionals. He is dominant in this game, but there is definitely skill gap between someone like MVP, and let's say Nada or MC. The fact that MVP is has moved higher towards the skill ceiling than others, shows that there is some level of difficulty here. So let's say someone better than MVP comes along, considering the facts they should attain the height in the skill ceiling that MVP holds (using MVP for consistency now). If they actually are better, which they are, they will move higher than MVP, if MVP does not have the same amount of skill or doesn't improve. The better players will move advance the skill ceiling. The macro mechanics of StarCraft II allow for deaths of units, faster money, gold basis, means armies can be recreated. Sustained harassment and multi-tasking limits options for your opponant. Being able to have multiple queues, automatic rallies for armies, one button, means that you can, well, multi-task more, at the same time. This is not necessarily an option BW players have. | ||
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t A n K _ d E
Germany13 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
And I'm really worried that the skill ceiling is going to be reached or at the very least came very, very close to it in that skill is going to play less factor in games and its going to be more luck based like trying to catch your opponent off guard with say a build like 1-1-1 or mass roach and hydra like Stephano is doing against protoss. This is stupid. There are so many variables that determine who turns out the winner: decision making, multi-tasking, army control and execution. You name it. For example as Zerg you can have 50 larva all at once and produce 100 zerglings all at once and it doesn't force you to build units all the time and pressure your opponent, it creates this cushion where even if you weren't macroing all that well the past minute you can just fall back to your 20 or 50 larvae from before when nothing was happening. That means you have to constantly inject to get that many larva, which in itself takes macro skills. And try produce 100 Zerglings against a bunch of stimmed marines and sieged tanks. It'll be bloody inefficient. And I'd like to see how a 3 base Zerg with that many larva fights off a Terran or Protoss who realizes that larva inefficiency and just takes 2-3 extra bases and then macros his butt off properly and just kills you. There are no rewards for leaving that many larva and not pressuring. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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