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On October 29 2011 18:56 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 18:29 hehe wrote:those control videos are impossible for a human to do those are pretty much TAS videos i can post the same thing for broodwar. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +we will never see anybody being able to pull off things like this Agreed, and these videos are also completely beside the point I feel. As I see it, the question is whether or not the game allows for total domination. I think it's hard to tell man, but it does seem like the game is way way way easier to master due to: Clean way points Multible building selection Smart casting (Almost) unlimited control groups Queue up buildings Double rally for zergs This is literally what I'm asking to make me have faith in SC2: Remove everything I just mentioned. And remove the artificial macro mechanics and the unit ball pathing aswell. Afterwards, Browder go nuts! I don't care which units you put in the game. It doesn't have to be a copy of bw for me to like it, but I do have a certain way I've come to expect a game named StarCraft to function. Now this is just my stupid opinion of what would make me play the game, and how it would allow the players who should dominate to dominate.
I am very happy that all the points you want to remove are in the game. I know many of the BW players like it when a player trains hard to do tasks that can easily be automated, but I and many others do not get excited by this.
You are used to the BW mechanics, but would BW be a more exciting game for you if the macro mechanics were even harder? If the control groups were smaller?
I didn't play BW, but I know that certain ai features are in it, like the ability to attack move or that once a worker is given the order to mine he continues to mine, you do not have to order him to go to the mineral patch every time. Do you think this features make the game worse or are you happy that they allow the players to spend their APM to other tasks?
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the skill ceiling has already been reached, theres not much that top players can do to differentiate themselves, also there is no player who is outright indestructable
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
The micro skill ceiling for SC2 will never be reached. If you watch any of the micro AI videos, you'll see the capabilities of just a few units to absolutely destroy things. It's way way way to early to talk about mechanical skill ceilings, people can barely micro now as it is, let alone micro, macro and have the required multitasking. No. I'm not worried at all.
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On October 29 2011 19:28 Fym wrote:
the skill ceiling has already been reached, theres not much that top players can do to differentiate themselves, also there is no player who is outright indestructable
When I watch the mathces I see top player making mistakes all the time. I raraleyy have the feeling that somebody made everything perfect and lost. And only if no mistakes where made, then the skill ceiling would be rached. The automaton2000 bot videos are a good example, that large improvements can still be made. And yes top players (MVP, Nestea) differentiate themselves quite strongly already.
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as far as my skill ceiling goes and how it reflects my competitive experience on the ladder, no not really.
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On October 29 2011 18:41 Gotmog wrote:
No i am not worried.
You people just have to start thinking for yourself.
You are comparing collosus micro to reaver micro ? Well, yah you can't do that.
Lets start with macro. We are no where near the ceiling . Terrans are queuing units like crazy! Zergs are missing injects, missing tumors, stacking thousands of minerals in mid/late game...
Micro is so horrible right now. What is stopping terrans from microing reapers up/down the cliffs on 1 expo, while doing blue flame medivacs (watch lucifron's medivac shooting micro). What is stopping protos players from manually using charge ? What is stopping HSM and people splitting only 1 unit to escape it rather then running the whole flock of "mutas" from it?
People complaing so much about clamping. Yet, we see Protoss using 1 hotkey, terran's not using hotkeys at all other then for drops and early game, zergs using up to 3 hotkeys...
What is stopping you to use ~7 hotkeys, to split your army. To avoid those fungals, spread your army across entire map, etc etc.
How about doing something like focus void ray on each ultralisk (for example...) so they can charge up, instead of focus targeting ?
Can't wait for BW pros to switch. They might be able to use all that 50% extra speed they have (that they don't use on macro in sc2) on actual micro all around the map.
Lets see what will happen to this game with 7 unit control groups....
Also, if you look at the units we are getting in HoTs this game will become harder to micro.
All in builds are getting weaker. Maps are getting bigger...
Spot on IMO. There is still so much room for refinement in the current play that I can't believe people are seriously discussing this.
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I am worried indeed, the sad thing is, even though Blizzard raised what was possible by getting rid of some macro squicks like no MBS or automine, they didn't raise the micro ceiling with it. They designed units that would work in Broodwar, but are pretty meh in SC2 pathing like the Collosus. That unit would work great since the pathing didn't automatically make every unit line up, but as of right now it is just designed to easily stand toe to toe with other armies to the point where micro on both the collosus end or the opponents end is minimalized.
I hope they will add more units that benefit from attackign from an angle or rotation like the hellion.
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Nope, not concerned, because it's still far and away from any player reaching it consistently.
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I can't remember who said it, but someone raised a good point saying that how often did you see a foreigner beat a Korean back in BW? Very rarely... In SC2 however, you actually see it quite often. Perhaps you can say that foreigners have just gotten better an have been practicing a lot more then they used to, you may be able to say that, but perhaps it could be said that the skill ceiling isn't that high.
Perhaps you shouldn't look at it as "If you are a better player than someone else, you should close to 100% of your matches". Rather look at it as "If I'm slightly better than you, I will win 55% of my matches against you", which in my opinion is better than the old philosophy. It's not so different than a lot of real life sports... It's seldom rare where you see soccer teams win 100% of their matches even though they have better players, they do win perhaps 75% of their matches but even occasionally someone who is a lot worse will luck out.
This is better for E-Sports imo, who the hell wants to see some terran who is slightly better than some other terran win 100% of there matches against them? It adds an element of surprise to catch your opponent of guard, Which brings me to another argument... Perhaps the game has turned into a game of intelligence more so than your ability to spam buttons really fast?
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On October 29 2011 18:14 LuciferSC wrote:I believe you guys under-estimate the 'skill ceiling' True automining exists, u can group multiple production buildings, yada yada. However on the other side of the mirror, those elements allow for flashier players (like what MMA does). I for one can't wait to see what those BW legends would be able to do once they move into SC2. 
but the thing is, higher skill ceilings would STILL allow for players to do flashy stuff that MMA currently does, only it would require higher skills to do the same thing, hence the definition of higher skill ceilings.
And I agree with OP completely. It is simply a fact that SC2 has lower skill ceiling than BW, there is just no question about that with automated mining, rally points, grouping more than 12 units, building and production grouping, etc etc.
In BW, a player that can manually do all of the above while still executing the right strategy and making the right decisions will be better than a player who can't do those (assuming all else equal). But in SC2, there is no difference between those two players as long as their strategical choices are equal.
But all that being said, I don't see a simple solution for Blizzard to fix this without hurting the game for the masses. There are more non-pro players than pros, and these things are clearly better for the masses.
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This thread is stupidly knee-jerk with no evidence to back it up. This is why so many SC2 players think BW players are asses. Thinly veiled MBS/automine bitching imo
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On October 29 2011 19:28 Fym wrote:
the skill ceiling has already been reached, theres not much that top players can do to differentiate themselves, also there is no player who is outright indestructable
I watch the best players lose rallied units for absolutly nothing.
I watch the best players a-move their units into forcefields while Stalkers stand safely behind and fire freely.
I watch top players lose multiple bases to light harrassment.
I watch top players run units away into forcefields while protoss destroy them for no damage taken.
I watch top players float 10000 minerals 6000 gas and not have all relevant unit upgrades done or researching.
I watch top level players attack with the ranged units infront of the melee units.
I watch top level players clump up all their spellcasters in one small area.
I watch top level players ddestroy their own Orbital due to lack of focus.
If this is the top of the skill ceiling SC2 is screwed. We are barly off the floor
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we cant even compare the amount of time invested into BW and Sc2 to start seeing revolutionizing plays and micro, although the warp prism+HT to counter emp's had a nice flavour to it.
oh and to answer op, of course we havent reached the skill ceiling yet, what are you talking about.
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oh of course not, bw's skill ceiling was lower back way back i mean people thought nada was perfect in his play, and we have come so far since then that I think in the next few years we will see a HUGE jump in the skill ceiling and sc2 will become quite hard (not quite as hard as bw yet but still very hard)
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On October 29 2011 19:43 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 18:14 LuciferSC wrote:I believe you guys under-estimate the 'skill ceiling' True automining exists, u can group multiple production buildings, yada yada. However on the other side of the mirror, those elements allow for flashier players (like what MMA does). I for one can't wait to see what those BW legends would be able to do once they move into SC2. but the thing is, higher skill ceilings would STILL allow for players to do flashy stuff that MMA currently does, only it would require higher skills to do the same thing, hence the definition of higher skill ceilings. And I agree with OP completely. It is simply a fact that SC2 has lower skill ceiling than BW, there is just no question about that with automated mining, rally points, grouping more than 12 units, building and production grouping, etc etc. In BW, a player that can manually do all of the above while still executing the right strategy and making the right decisions will be better than a player who can't do those (assuming all else equal). But in SC2, there is no difference between those two players as long as their strategical choices are equal. But all that being said, I don't see a simple solution for Blizzard to fix this without hurting the game for the masses. There are more non-pro players than pros, and these things are clearly better for the masses.
"but the thing is, higher skill ceilings would STILL allow for players to do flashy stuff that MMA currently does, only it would require higher skills to do the same thing, hence the definition of higher skill ceilings" (I do not know how I can cite only a part of a posting)
If you have this hgher skill to do the same thing with a worse UI, you might do even better things once you have a good UI. The fact that the skill ceiling cannot be reached means that you can always improve. A better UI will mean that the way your overall army behaves will be much better, given a better user interface.
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The skill cap is definitely not reachable, but there won't be big differences between S class and A class gamers, which i dislike. I feel like this is almost already the case, and when many of those talented BW beasts switch it will be even more the case.
Though as HotS will change the strategies everything will be reset and we'll have to see what happens.
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You can still see the skill celling being pushed on the MVP vs Bomber on Taldarim you could see a lot of amazing play and a lot of blunders (not just bomber).
Warprism micro, Roach splitting, Marauder splitting.
People that say that SC2 have a lower skill ceiling makes no sense. Its not needed to have more than 200 apm to be a top player in SC2. But is APM really the best measurement for skill ceiling? In that case Beatmania has an insane skill ceiling compared to BW.
On October 29 2011 19:53 HolydaKing wrote:
The skill cap is definitely not reachable, but there won't be big differences between S class and A class gamers, which i dislike. I feel like this is almost already the case, and when many of those talented BW beasts switch it will be even more the case.
Though as HotS will change the strategies everything will be reset and we'll have to see what happens.
Nestea and MVP are so the only S class players in SC2 currently. I mean Flash still loses games to lesser players does not mean he is not a step above them.
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On October 29 2011 19:51 Sega92 wrote:
oh of course not, bw's skill ceiling was lower back way back i mean people thought nada was perfect in his play, and we have come so far since then that I think in the next few years we will see a HUGE jump in the skill ceiling and sc2 will become quite hard (not quite as hard as bw yet but still very hard)
I think the definition of skill ceiling is the "best possible play that cannot be improved anymore". This means the skill ceiling cannot increase or decrease. Only what people think where the skill ceiling is can actually change, but most people know that nobody is even close to the skill ceiling currently.
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Sometimes you shouldn't mistake Blunders with simple bad luck.
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Fair enough, although I missed my point a little bit in that of course you can never reach the full ceiling its humanly impossible, but what I was thinking more is along the lines of diminishing returns.
Sure blinking 10 stalkers perfectly vs blinking only 5 perfectly is going to gain you an advantage over the zerg's 30 roaches, but its not something really of importance and you could use that time instead of microing just building more units and thus you are limited in the micro opportunities you have !
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EPT
