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Are you worried about the skill ceiling in SC2? - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
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AxionSteel
Profile Joined January 2011
United States7754 Posts
October 29 2011 17:20 GMT
#181
Not worried in the slightest. I think there's a chance that if these BW pros come accross, they may not be as dominant, as there is quite a bit of randomness in this game, and it's supposedly not as hard as BW ( I never played it), but if they're as good as everyone says they are, then there is limitless potential, as a terran player some of the micro you can do is insane, so I have no doubt that once that near perfect player comes along, it'll look really beautiful.
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-29 17:35:16
October 29 2011 17:34 GMT
#182
On October 30 2011 02:20 Avan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2011 02:15 Alzadar wrote:
I said quickest remax, not strongest. 50 Warpgates is a little out there, but 25 is quite feasible in 3+ base scenarios. That allows for a double round of warp-ins that give 100 supply in the space of 20 seconds, i.e. before zerglings have even hatched, let alone higher tech units.


25 warpgates out of 3 bases?

I don't think we play the same game, sir.


As soon as you hit 200 supply, you need to start building more warpgates. 25 is a bit of an exaggerated number, but it's not absurd. By the time you've taken your 4th (especially if there's a gold base involved), you want to be approaching that number.
I am the Town Medic.
Avan
Profile Joined March 2011
Brazil121 Posts
October 29 2011 17:38 GMT
#183
On October 30 2011 02:34 Alzadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2011 02:20 Avan wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:15 Alzadar wrote:
I said quickest remax, not strongest. 50 Warpgates is a little out there, but 25 is quite feasible in 3+ base scenarios. That allows for a double round of warp-ins that give 100 supply in the space of 20 seconds, i.e. before zerglings have even hatched, let alone higher tech units.


25 warpgates out of 3 bases?

I don't think we play the same game, sir.


As soon as you hit 200 supply, you need to start building more warpgates. 25 is a bit of an exaggerated number, but it's not absurd. By the time you've taken your 4th (especially if there's a gold base involved), you want to be approaching that number.


Okay, I get it, you are trolling. I'm sorry for taking you seriously.
"I have never tasted Death, Zeratul. Nor shall I". Liquid'HerO FIGHTING!
jonaa
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands151 Posts
October 29 2011 17:42 GMT
#184
On October 30 2011 02:38 Avan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2011 02:34 Alzadar wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:20 Avan wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:15 Alzadar wrote:
I said quickest remax, not strongest. 50 Warpgates is a little out there, but 25 is quite feasible in 3+ base scenarios. That allows for a double round of warp-ins that give 100 supply in the space of 20 seconds, i.e. before zerglings have even hatched, let alone higher tech units.


25 warpgates out of 3 bases?

I don't think we play the same game, sir.


As soon as you hit 200 supply, you need to start building more warpgates. 25 is a bit of an exaggerated number, but it's not absurd. By the time you've taken your 4th (especially if there's a gold base involved), you want to be approaching that number.


Okay, I get it, you are trolling. I'm sorry for taking you seriously.


Sorry, how is this trolling? If you stay on 10ish gates when ur maxed and ur army dies ull remax so slowly :s. 25 is like a huge number but not unthinkable late-late-game toss.
D:
Avan
Profile Joined March 2011
Brazil121 Posts
October 29 2011 17:46 GMT
#185
On October 30 2011 02:42 cLunAsTyY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2011 02:38 Avan wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:34 Alzadar wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:20 Avan wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:15 Alzadar wrote:
I said quickest remax, not strongest. 50 Warpgates is a little out there, but 25 is quite feasible in 3+ base scenarios. That allows for a double round of warp-ins that give 100 supply in the space of 20 seconds, i.e. before zerglings have even hatched, let alone higher tech units.


25 warpgates out of 3 bases?

I don't think we play the same game, sir.


As soon as you hit 200 supply, you need to start building more warpgates. 25 is a bit of an exaggerated number, but it's not absurd. By the time you've taken your 4th (especially if there's a gold base involved), you want to be approaching that number.


Okay, I get it, you are trolling. I'm sorry for taking you seriously.


Sorry, how is this trolling? If you stay on 10ish gates when ur maxed and ur army dies ull remax so slowly :s. 25 is like a huge number but not unthinkable late-late-game toss.


Forgive me. I'm not saying it's unthinkable. I'm only stating it is pretty impossible to keep 25 gates producing out of 3/4 bases like Alzadar said.

Unless you have no tech, but even so...... 25 gateways out of 3 or 4 bases? Sounds pretty troll-ish to me.

And I don't think 3 bases is "late late game".

Well, not that it matters. I'm sorry for polluting the forums. See you guys around ~\o
"I have never tasted Death, Zeratul. Nor shall I". Liquid'HerO FIGHTING!
Dissonance23
Profile Joined September 2010
United States259 Posts
October 29 2011 17:48 GMT
#186
On October 30 2011 02:46 Avan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2011 02:42 cLunAsTyY wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:38 Avan wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:34 Alzadar wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:20 Avan wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:15 Alzadar wrote:
I said quickest remax, not strongest. 50 Warpgates is a little out there, but 25 is quite feasible in 3+ base scenarios. That allows for a double round of warp-ins that give 100 supply in the space of 20 seconds, i.e. before zerglings have even hatched, let alone higher tech units.


25 warpgates out of 3 bases?

I don't think we play the same game, sir.


As soon as you hit 200 supply, you need to start building more warpgates. 25 is a bit of an exaggerated number, but it's not absurd. By the time you've taken your 4th (especially if there's a gold base involved), you want to be approaching that number.


Okay, I get it, you are trolling. I'm sorry for taking you seriously.


Sorry, how is this trolling? If you stay on 10ish gates when ur maxed and ur army dies ull remax so slowly :s. 25 is like a huge number but not unthinkable late-late-game toss.


Forgive me. I'm not saying it's unthinkable. I'm only stating it is pretty impossible to keep 25 gates producing out of 3/4 bases like Alzadar said.

Unless you have no tech, but even so...... 25 gateways out of 3 or 4 bases? Sounds pretty troll-ish to me.

And I don't think 3 bases is "late late game".

Well, not that it matters. I'm sorry for polluting the forums. See you guys around ~\o


Of course you're not going to be able to build out of all of them for a long amount of time. But when you're banking resources it's better to remax faster than slower and lose.
Noro
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada991 Posts
October 29 2011 17:51 GMT
#187
It's waaay too early to be worried imo.
The game has only been out for a year, and I know we haven't seen all this game has to offer yet.
Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me.
DeadBull
Profile Joined August 2011
421 Posts
October 29 2011 17:52 GMT
#188
well if they fix terran then im not worried
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
October 29 2011 17:52 GMT
#189
On October 30 2011 02:46 Avan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2011 02:42 cLunAsTyY wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:38 Avan wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:34 Alzadar wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:20 Avan wrote:
On October 30 2011 02:15 Alzadar wrote:
I said quickest remax, not strongest. 50 Warpgates is a little out there, but 25 is quite feasible in 3+ base scenarios. That allows for a double round of warp-ins that give 100 supply in the space of 20 seconds, i.e. before zerglings have even hatched, let alone higher tech units.


25 warpgates out of 3 bases?

I don't think we play the same game, sir.


As soon as you hit 200 supply, you need to start building more warpgates. 25 is a bit of an exaggerated number, but it's not absurd. By the time you've taken your 4th (especially if there's a gold base involved), you want to be approaching that number.


Okay, I get it, you are trolling. I'm sorry for taking you seriously.


Sorry, how is this trolling? If you stay on 10ish gates when ur maxed and ur army dies ull remax so slowly :s. 25 is like a huge number but not unthinkable late-late-game toss.


Forgive me. I'm not saying it's unthinkable. I'm only stating it is pretty impossible to keep 25 gates producing out of 3/4 bases like Alzadar said.

Unless you have no tech, but even so...... 25 gateways out of 3 or 4 bases? Sounds pretty troll-ish to me.

And I don't think 3 bases is "late late game".

Well, not that it matters. I'm sorry for polluting the forums. See you guys around ~\o


Who is suggesting constant production? We're talking about when you're maxed or approaching max, and resources begin to stockpile.
I am the Town Medic.
PhoenixDark
Profile Joined March 2011
United States286 Posts
October 29 2011 17:52 GMT
#190
Not worried at all. Terran seems to be close to their max potential, but the other races aren't nearly there. Eventually we'll see a Zerg god who doesn't miss injects, spreads creep effortlessly, and pulls off re-max tech switches that seem to make his end game unbeatable.

People act like the game has been out for 3 years. It's barely been one, jesus.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435469
PhilleeC
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States46 Posts
October 29 2011 17:57 GMT
#191
You know that paradox where you have to reach a door but before you can get there you have to get halfway there, but before you can get halfway there you have to get a quarter way there, And before a quarter, one-eighth, etc, etc. I feel the skill ceiling is the door and the steps are your progress. You will never reach the skill ceiling, only get closer and closer.
"WHAT THE FU- BANELINGS" -Day9
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
October 29 2011 18:05 GMT
#192
On October 29 2011 18:21 Optimism wrote:
The SQ thread provides some interesting context for this, and the answer is even among pro-gamers there's still quite a bit of variance in macro ability.

As for micro, I'll just post this:



Now it may be that improving your skill leads to dimishing returns beyond a certain point, I could completely buy that. And it could be that the point of diminishing returns is too low to separate the very best players from the merely very good. But as for actually reaching the ceiling? That will never happen. It cannot be done by any human being.

edit: haha, beaten to it I see.


Thanks for introducing me to this youtube channel. This is also such a great argument to the OP.

Give me nerd chills thinking about the future of this game.
Life's good :D
Nin-x
Profile Joined September 2011
17 Posts
October 29 2011 18:08 GMT
#193
I don't think we'll ever reach the 'skill' ceiling. Every time you think we're at a 'skill ceiling', someone will come out with something new and the skill ceiling goes up.


What is 'skill' anyways? is it having perfect macro/micro, 90% win rate, high APM?
There are too many things that could fall under 'skill' to think that someone would ever reach the ceiling.
StiX
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands220 Posts
October 29 2011 18:11 GMT
#194
On October 29 2011 17:57 EtherealDeath wrote:
Imo the Zerg skill ceiling is not nearly reached yet, whereas Terran and Protoss are much closer. I think we are nearing the point where skill can still be vastly improved upon, but the rewards for such skill have probably mostly passed the point of diminishing returns.


I agree with OP and this has also been a thought of mine and why I think zerg has the biggest potential as race.
"Think for yourself, question authority" Timothy Leary
Qntc.YuMe
Profile Joined January 2011
United States792 Posts
October 29 2011 18:14 GMT
#195
i dont believe the OP for good reasons.

The reason is because there will always be a winner and loser in a game. Thus the winner is better than the loser for some kind of reason such as skills (not luck).

If both players play perfectly, assuming if the game is balanced, both players should not lose right away. So it becomes a situation where its about WHO makes the first mistake. The first one to make the mistake loses.

So i believe at this point, its about avoiding who makes that mistake first in order to win. (Weither its engagement or descision making)
piknic
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada59 Posts
October 29 2011 18:16 GMT
#196
I don't think the skill ceiling on micro/engaments is even remotely close to being reached, for all races.
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
October 29 2011 18:19 GMT
#197
imo the skill ceiling is higher than most people care to admit, that said you make a decent point. I guess we'll have to just wait and see how the BW pros go.
TigerKarl
Profile Joined November 2010
1757 Posts
October 29 2011 18:19 GMT
#198
This is a topic that nobody needs because there's plenty of weakness in the op.
entrust
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland196 Posts
October 29 2011 18:24 GMT
#199
For me this is all big bullshit. SC2 in comparison to BW in terms of mechanics is easier, but that means pros can spend their apm elsewhere.
What do you think their apm will disappear upon transitioning?
It's easier to macro so it's more noob friendly, but in the end the best players will be on the top.
If BW was about players dominating and SC2 is more like a king of the hill (like one of the articles said) then I don't understand why MVP and Nestea won so much, guess they were lucky...
Yes BW is more balanced as of now, but there were tons of imbalances when the game was 1 year old and they continued to patch it long time after.
BW players are living in the cave and are hating on SC2 players and vice versa. We are supposed to be family 'cus those games are similar. People are fighting over some bullshit and if SC2 is a farce then those BW players that feel they are so much better should come and show how much better they are, for now this is almost pure theory crafting.

NOTE: We got few top BW pros in SC2, they are all past their prime or aren't training enough. By the time they switched from BW they weren't winning there and in SC2 ( so much easier game for such a pros from BW universe) they are not winning either.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6267 Posts
October 29 2011 18:32 GMT
#200
From all the SC2 vs BW threads that seemed to have surfaced recently, this does seem alot like one of those.
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