EPTAre you worried about the skill ceiling in SC2? - Page 12
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Tyree
1508 Posts
SC2 is barely a year old, it is nowhere near mastered, you can see mistakes left and right and soon enough the game is getting changed with HotS, 1 year, then another massive change plus with. Imagine SC2 basically sitting on a rollercoaster, no matter how good the players are they will never get to the skill ceiling. It will only happen once the game is no longer updated by even balance patches where you will have couple of years of uninterrupted competition and finally you might see a few select bonjwas get close to some kind of perfection of the game. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5816 Posts
On October 30 2011 04:57 Blasterion wrote: By allocating APM away from mechanics by simplifying it, it allows better exploration of the game itself in other areas, You guys keep talking about allocating APM differently but never give any specifics. As of now, there's simply less to do in SC2, be it macro or micro. When blizzard dumbed down macro, everyone said people will focus on micro more. It then turned out that micro is even more dumbed down (to the point people are calling moving Mutas over a Thor and pressing 'h' a "micro technique", for god's sake...). Now people are saying players will eventually allocate their APM/whatever elsewhere - but where? I'd be content if SC2 allowed players to allocate their APM/skill elsewhere, but currently it does not. There's less macro AND micro than in BW. And even though the mechanics are easier than in BW, top SC2 players are showcasing worse multi-tasking, micro and macro than the top BW players. Show me where that supposed potential is. I really do not see it. There are things like Marine vs. Baneling micro or Baneling landmines, but those are exception, whereas such things were the rule in BW. Blizzard is not going to fix the game. They openly say they won't fix certain flaws. And if anything, they are moving it more towards the WC3 model of micro - who uses the abilities to the fullest. I find that boring compared to BW micro. ;; edit: And don't tell me I'm a mindless hater or something. I used to be one of the biggest SC2 enthusiasts. I took part in several SC2 related contests (together with FA for third place in SCLegacy macro mechanics contest), worked in the BW/SC2 section of GameReplays.org and discussed SC2 on three different sites like crazy. It's just that blizzard gradually made me lose all my hope that sc2 will ever live up to its name. One blunder after another. | ||
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opdomo
United States8 Posts
I do feel however that sc2 is easier to play than bw for obvious reasons, such as the new macro system etc. Things that I could make this game better, these are just ideas and please take them with a grain of salt (I personally would like for a harder game so the best players will always shine through) 1. For terran (only race I play and can say things that would make it harder to play) Put a time limit for how many mules can be called down. 1 per every minute or something like that, that way I can't just call down two mules if I forget to call them down at 50 energy. 2. Get rid of scan and make ravens cheaper. 3. Get rid of being able to que units 4. For all races, if somehow blizzard could cut down on the ball of death, make it so a certain amount of food can be in a control group. I personally feel micro is not as important because it is so easy to put units in a huge ball and attack. Granted pros still do great mircro with these balls with spits and ect, it would make a higher skill gap to be made to have multiple armies instead of one big army. All these ideas could suck but the community needs to come up with ideas if they want things changed and propose them to blizzard. | ||
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Achilles306
Canada84 Posts
What about Terran never losing a marine to banelings? How about Protoss never going above 50 chronoboost on any nexus? I think the skill ceiling is still a far way off. Playing perfect (hitting the ceiling) is extremely difficult. | ||
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
I think the skill ceiling is limitless Even if the macro mechanics were easier (which imo they can and should be), people would never reach a spot where this is no room for improvement. I am all in favor of people spending their micro skills doing decision oriented actions (rather than compulsory actions - such as making sure probes as split properly between gas and minerals) | ||
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
On October 30 2011 05:25 Achilles306 wrote: Have you seen a 15 minute game where zerg doesn't miss an injection? What about Terran never losing a marine to banelings? How about Protoss never going above 50 chronoboost on any nexus? I think the skill ceiling is still a far way off. Playing perfect (hitting the ceiling) is extremely difficult. Going above 50 chronoboost on a nexus is not a bad thing. It is very useful to have stockpiles chrono in the case of getting dropped (the same as zerg having unspent larva in case of emergencies). As long as they are keeping their money low, you cant fault anyone for having high chronoboost (unless they have upgrades going and are not chronoing them) | ||
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Rinny
United States616 Posts
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TheBomb
237 Posts
The closest I'm seeing in SC2 is with broodlords with infestors vs marines, tanks and vikings. Of course the fact that vikings hard counter broodlords is a weak link and the fact that infestors hard couter marines is a weak link and the fact that sieged tanks hard counter infestors in a weak link. And while its quite interesting, its still way bellow what Brood War has! | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
If Flash, JD, Bisu were to come to SC2, the skill level would likely increase, but there should always be room for improvement. I think that it will all come down to strategy, micro and gamesense, as all pros will have macro to near perfect levels. After all, simply seeing one pro outmacro the other does not make for an exciting match either. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On October 29 2011 18:12 Lightswarm wrote: Are you winning all your games? If so, the skill ceiling has been reached. If not, stop posting and start practicing I think you completely missed the point of the thread lol | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On October 30 2011 05:15 maybenexttime wrote: It's hard to try to explain without sounding rude since thinking there is some form of skill cap that can be reached means the person has a very low understanding of the game and to be blunt, low understanding of RTS games in general.You guys keep talking about allocating APM differently but never give any specifics. As of now, there's simply less to do in SC2, be it macro or micro. When blizzard dumbed down macro, everyone said people will focus on micro more. It then turned out that micro is even more dumbed down (to the point people are calling moving Mutas over a Thor and pressing 'h' a "micro technique", for god's sake...). Now people are saying players will eventually allocate their APM/whatever elsewhere - but where? I'd be content if SC2 allowed players to allocate their APM/skill elsewhere, but currently it does not. There's less macro AND micro than in BW. And even though the mechanics are easier than in BW, top SC2 players are showcasing worse multi-tasking, micro and macro than the top BW players. Show me where that supposed potential is. I really do not see it. There are things like Marine vs. Baneling micro or Baneling landmines, but those are exception, whereas such things were the rule in BW. Blizzard is not going to fix the game. They openly say they won't fix certain flaws. And if anything, they are moving it more towards the WC3 model of micro - who uses the abilities to the fullest. I find that boring compared to BW micro. ;; edit: And don't tell me I'm a mindless hater or something. I used to be one of the biggest SC2 enthusiasts. I took part in several SC2 related contests (together with FA for third place in SCLegacy macro mechanics contest), worked in the BW/SC2 section of GameReplays.org and discussed SC2 on three different sites like crazy. It's just that blizzard gradually made me lose all my hope that sc2 will ever live up to its name. One blunder after another. We can take basic multitasking. If your multitasking and speed is better than your opponents you can force battles at 2 spots at the same time, or 3, or 4, or 5, or 6, or 20. We can take micro. People post those bot videos to show glimpses of what can be achieved in theory. That "no human can do it" doesn't make it a bad argument, it just illustrates that the more skilled players will always come out ahead of a less skilled player in the same situation. You could make videos like that of anything, marines vs marines, zerglings vs zerglings, stalkers vs hydras, VR's vs queens, probes vs marines .... And so on. A perfected bot would probably hit tens of thousands apm for example. And on top of the humanly impossible to reach speed caps the strategical possibilities probably go way beyond things like chess. Games like these are so extremely complex that people would probably easily be able to compete in it if 99% of the current game was automated and each race only had 1 battle unit.. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On October 30 2011 05:42 TheBomb wrote: I remember a stork game in Brood War against a zerg that went something like this: Used dragoons and carriers to snipe off units with storm when zerg units came closer and red archon maelstorming units that come closer. On the other hand we had zerg sitting above stork with hydras, queens, scourge, devourer and defiler. Using dark swarm to protect the hydras from interceptors and dragoons bellow and using queens at the same time to slow down carriers and get devourers to hit them so they go down easier by scourge and hydras all at the same time when dodging malestorm and storm on top of it. The closest I'm seeing in SC2 is with broodlords with infestors vs marines, tanks and vikings. Of course the fact that vikings hard counter broodlords is a weak link and the fact that infestors hard couter marines is a weak link and the fact that sieged tanks hard counter infestors in a weak link. And while its quite interesting, its still way bellow what Brood War has! It's only different in your mind. You can just as easily say "Defilers hard counter Marines, Science Vessels hard counter Defilers, Scourge hard counter Science Vessels, Marines hard counter Scourge". In both cases it's an oversimplification. | ||
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Archie_Lewis
Czech Republic87 Posts
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
When's the last time you even saw a Protoss P-move his zealots to minimize tank splash? There's so much people aren't doing. | ||
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Fleebenworth
463 Posts
The threads OP mentions (particularly elephant in the room - which is severely flawed in many respects) do nothing to establish that players are nearing skill cap in SC2. If anything, the skill gap between players who take the game seriously and practice diligently and everyone else is widening. | ||
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