On October 30 2011 02:15 Alzadar wrote: I said quickest remax, not strongest. 50 Warpgates is a little out there, but 25 is quite feasible in 3+ base scenarios. That allows for a double round of warp-ins that give 100 supply in the space of 20 seconds, i.e. before zerglings have even hatched, let alone higher tech units.
25 warpgates out of 3 bases?
I don't think we play the same game, sir.
As soon as you hit 200 supply, you need to start building more warpgates. 25 is a bit of an exaggerated number, but it's not absurd. By the time you've taken your 4th (especially if there's a gold base involved), you want to be approaching that number.
Okay, I get it, you are trolling. I'm sorry for taking you seriously.
Sorry, how is this trolling? If you stay on 10ish gates when ur maxed and ur army dies ull remax so slowly :s. 25 is like a huge number but not unthinkable late-late-game toss.
Yes it is actually unthinkable, that is why no one does it.
On October 29 2011 18:21 Optimism wrote: The SQ thread provides some interesting context for this, and the answer is even among pro-gamers there's still quite a bit of variance in macro ability.
As for micro, I'll just post this:
Now it may be that improving your skill leads to dimishing returns beyond a certain point, I could completely buy that. And it could be that the point of diminishing returns is too low to separate the very best players from the merely very good. But as for actually reaching the ceiling? That will never happen. It cannot be done by any human being.
edit: haha, beaten to it I see.
Thanks for introducing me to this youtube channel. This is also such a great argument to the OP.
Give me nerd chills thinking about the future of this game.
It's actually humanly impossible, not sure why this is a good video to show the micro capabilities of the game, but some people aren't very realistic in this world it seems.
On October 30 2011 02:15 Alzadar wrote: I said quickest remax, not strongest. 50 Warpgates is a little out there, but 25 is quite feasible in 3+ base scenarios. That allows for a double round of warp-ins that give 100 supply in the space of 20 seconds, i.e. before zerglings have even hatched, let alone higher tech units.
25 warpgates out of 3 bases?
I don't think we play the same game, sir.
As soon as you hit 200 supply, you need to start building more warpgates. 25 is a bit of an exaggerated number, but it's not absurd. By the time you've taken your 4th (especially if there's a gold base involved), you want to be approaching that number.
Okay, I get it, you are trolling. I'm sorry for taking you seriously.
Sorry, how is this trolling? If you stay on 10ish gates when ur maxed and ur army dies ull remax so slowly :s. 25 is like a huge number but not unthinkable late-late-game toss.
Yes it is actually unthinkable, that is why no one does it.
On October 29 2011 18:21 Optimism wrote: The SQ thread provides some interesting context for this, and the answer is even among pro-gamers there's still quite a bit of variance in macro ability.
Now it may be that improving your skill leads to dimishing returns beyond a certain point, I could completely buy that. And it could be that the point of diminishing returns is too low to separate the very best players from the merely very good. But as for actually reaching the ceiling? That will never happen. It cannot be done by any human being.
edit: haha, beaten to it I see.
Thanks for introducing me to this youtube channel. This is also such a great argument to the OP.
Give me nerd chills thinking about the future of this game.
It's actually humanly impossible, not sure why this is a good video to show the micro capabilities of the game, but some people aren't very realistic in this world it seems.
I would've think happy's micro is automated if husky didn't cast it. I have never seen any Korean reach that level of micro yet
On October 29 2011 19:51 Sega92 wrote: oh of course not, bw's skill ceiling was lower back way back i mean people thought nada was perfect in his play, and we have come so far since then that I think in the next few years we will see a HUGE jump in the skill ceiling and sc2 will become quite hard (not quite as hard as bw yet but still very hard)
I think the definition of skill ceiling is the "best possible play that cannot be improved anymore". This means the skill ceiling cannot increase or decrease. Only what people think where the skill ceiling is can actually change, but most people know that nobody is even close to the skill ceiling currently.
This. The skill ceiling is where you play absolutely flawlessly. In starcraft it is more of a theoretical thing because it's not humanly possible to ever reach it. No matter how good you are, you will always forget a probe, get supply blocked sometimes or set a bad rally.
It cannot and will not be reached in SC2 and BW alike.
On October 29 2011 18:07 Mise wrote: The true skill ceiling of SC2 is humanly impossible to reach. To achieve the skill ceiling you need to macro perfectly and micro invidual units through the whole game. You can't play that fast you'd need thousands of APM.
Basically this. There is obviously a skill ceiling to Sc2, but it is unattainable. For example, as good as players like MarineKingPrime are at microing Marines, they aren't even anywhere close to this, much less being able to macro perfectly at the same time.
I think when people talk about the skill ceiling being lower in sc2 they mean that the skill required to compete with the best isn`t very high. Not talking about literally the absolute highest flawless level of play.
Yes it is actually unthinkable, that is why no one does it.
Tell that MouzHasuObs, one of the strongest EU Protoss, who is mostly known for his extreme strong late game. At a certain point in the late game, he builds mass gateways. In a long game (Over 30 ingame minutes), he has often around 20 gateways, I have even seen matches, where the count went beyond 30.
According to himself (casts, interviews), the ability to reinforce armies via mass gateways is one of Protoss` biggest strengths. I would even go as far and say, that mass gateways are common in super late game, atleast if you play gateway heavy.
I think SC2 will end up a lot like WC3 in retrospect. Right now, the game seems to be relying on promises of content in patches and expansions from Blizzard to keep a fresh metagame. Can't see the game keeping an evolving metagame for over a decade like BW.
On October 30 2011 03:56 mango_destroyer wrote: I think when people talk about the skill ceiling being lower in sc2 they mean that the skill required to compete with the best isn`t very high. Not talking about literally the absolute highest flawless level of play.
This. It takes too little skill to be able to play with the best and because of this, high level matches get decided by luck rather than skill.
Isn't a major complaint that battles end too quickly in sc2? Doesn't that translate directly into a higher skill ceiling, as it makes unit control way more difficult because everything happens faster?
I've just never understood the idea that sc2 has a lower skill ceiling. Everyone admits that units are doing more damage and everything, and yet that RAISES the skill ceiling in terms of micro. Maybe macro-wise, but there are extremely few players at the moment with perfect macro, now that they added in the macro mechanics.
And the fact that there really aren't any no-name players winning a lot of stuff makes me think there really is a pretty high skill ceiling. The evidence just isn't there.
On October 30 2011 04:01 DoubleReed wrote: Isn't a major complaint that battles end too quickly in sc2? Doesn't that translate directly into a higher skill ceiling, as it makes unit control way more difficult because everything happens faster?
I've just never understood the idea that sc2 has a lower skill ceiling. Everyone admits that units are doing more damage and everything, and yet that RAISES the skill ceiling in terms of micro. Maybe macro-wise, but there are extremely few players at the moment with perfect macro, now that they added in the macro mechanics.
And the fact that there really aren't any no-name players winning a lot of stuff makes me think there really is a pretty high skill ceiling. The evidence just isn't there.
In my Opinion SC2 probably is in the top 5 highest skill ceilings of any game of all time. BW is probably a clear #1 then there are some others like WC3 Quake and Cs1.6 ... whether SC2 falls 1st 2nd or 5th we won't know for a long long time
Yes it is actually unthinkable, that is why no one does it.
Tell that MouzHasuObs, one of the strongest EU Protoss, who is mostly known for his extreme strong late game. At a certain point in the late game, he builds mass gateways. In a long game (Over 30 ingame minutes), he has often around 20 gateways, I have even seen matches, where the count went beyond 30.
According to himself (casts, interviews), the ability to reinforce armies via mass gateways is one of Protoss` biggest strengths. I would even go as far and say, that mass gateways are common in super late game, atleast if you play gateway heavy.
So I guess 30+ minute games is the same thing as having 25 gates on 3 bases. What game are we playing again?
I also enjoy how you didn't include my quote that was referring to the 3 bases with 25 gates comment so further support your argument.
Yes it is actually unthinkable, that is why no one does it.
Tell that MouzHasuObs, one of the strongest EU Protoss, who is mostly known for his extreme strong late game. At a certain point in the late game, he builds mass gateways. In a long game (Over 30 ingame minutes), he has often around 20 gateways, I have even seen matches, where the count went beyond 30.
According to himself (casts, interviews), the ability to reinforce armies via mass gateways is one of Protoss` biggest strengths. I would even go as far and say, that mass gateways are common in super late game, atleast if you play gateway heavy.
So I guess 30+ minute games is the same thing as having 25 gates on 3 bases. What game are we playing again?
I also enjoy how you didn't include my quote that was referring to the 3 bases with 25 gates comment so further support your argument.
What have you got shoved up your ass? :\
I've seen many protoss get like 15 gates off of 3 base when they're maxed. 25 gates is a bit of an exaggeration as stated before in YOUR quote. Protoss' strength is a late game never ending protoss gateway army, they become like marines & marauders with medivacs.
On October 29 2011 18:21 Optimism wrote: The SQ thread provides some interesting context for this, and the answer is even among pro-gamers there's still quite a bit of variance in macro ability.
Now it may be that improving your skill leads to dimishing returns beyond a certain point, I could completely buy that. And it could be that the point of diminishing returns is too low to separate the very best players from the merely very good. But as for actually reaching the ceiling? That will never happen. It cannot be done by any human being.
edit: haha, beaten to it I see.
You can do what he's doing by patrol moving away. I do it all the time and I'm just average joe mid masters level player. I'm not trying to take anything away from it, but if you're trying to compare that to any of the amazing micro such as the mass lockdown + nukes by boxer vs bcs I think you're falling MUCH shorter.
I think the sc2 expansions will be very good for sc2 and hopefully up that ceiling, but to me marine splitting vs banelings isn't all too impressive in comparison (for me).
Yes it is actually unthinkable, that is why no one does it.
Tell that MouzHasuObs, one of the strongest EU Protoss, who is mostly known for his extreme strong late game. At a certain point in the late game, he builds mass gateways. In a long game (Over 30 ingame minutes), he has often around 20 gateways, I have even seen matches, where the count went beyond 30.
According to himself (casts, interviews), the ability to reinforce armies via mass gateways is one of Protoss` biggest strengths. I would even go as far and say, that mass gateways are common in super late game, atleast if you play gateway heavy.
So I guess 30+ minute games is the same thing as having 25 gates on 3 bases. What game are we playing again?
I also enjoy how you didn't include my quote that was referring to the 3 bases with 25 gates comment so further support your argument.
Man, you're so obsessed with that one number. I didn't say "when you are on 3 bases you should have 25 gates", I said that it's feasible to have that many when in 3+ base scenarios. 25 on 3 base is a little much most the time, but it can happen. If you're on 4 base with a gold and maxed, you should absolutely be close to that many. If you're still sitting on like 12 gates, you're going to get overwhelmed after a battle.
We still have another 2 expansions to come to increase the skill ceiling in this game. I wouldn't be so worried. We've barley seen the limits of WOL after a year.
On October 30 2011 00:24 SiaBBo wrote: Actually it's not that hard to inject and spread creep perfectly. All you have to do is look the timer and it tells you when to spread creep and when to inject again.
That's laughable, you ever played zerg? Try harassing with mutas while terrans are drop harassing, and keep up with the injects plus spreading your creep all at the same time. NOT EASY, even the today's top zergs don't do it perfectly.
On October 30 2011 04:22 Talack wrote: We still have another 2 expansions to come to increase the skill ceiling in this game. I wouldn't be so worried. We've barley seen the limits of WOL after a year.
Valid point you are making there. I believe as well that the skill cap is far from being reached, and with the upcoming expansions it should increase the limits furthermore. There are obviously quite a few gosu players out there, but I do not think that they even have come to understand all there is to the game. There is still a lot to improve on. I am not worried that much about anything, because there should still be a lot to be discovered and improved upon as pathces and new expansions are released.
people saying how the skill ceeling is microing 60 marines individualy while macroing while harassing with 3 drops while upgrading and nuking at the same time with 900 effective apm, but in reality the skill celing is more what humans can actualy achive with the limited maximum apm that we have and even though we are still far away from it I dont think you are thinking about it the right way
I am worried about the skill ceiling in SC2, because I think the aspect of the game that determines the height of the ceiling is mechanics, like many others I assume. I agree it was also the mechanics in BW, but the ceiling for BW mechanics was virtually limitless because of how much more difficult effective multitasking was, wherease SC2 it's generally much easier to multitask effectively. I don't mean to bash SC2 in that regard, but my point is just more valid when it is compared, and to my knowledge it is pretty well accepted that good mechanics in BW were harder to come by.
On October 30 2011 04:48 Grobyc wrote: I am worried about the skill ceiling in SC2, because I think the aspect of the game that determines the height of the ceiling is mechanics, like many others I assume. I agree it was also the mechanics in BW, but the ceiling for BW mechanics was virtually limitless because of how much more difficult effective multitasking was, wherease SC2 it's generally much easier to multitask effectively. I don't mean to bash SC2 in that regard, but my point is just more valid when it is compared, and to my knowledge it is pretty well accepted that good mechanics in BW were harder to come by.
By allocating APM away from mechanics by simplifying it, it allows better exploration of the game itself in other areas,
EPT
