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Random thought:
I wonder which of the BW teams would end up fielding the strongest SC2 team, assuming that many of their A-teamers and S-class players remain in BW while the bulk of their SC2 divisions consist of B-teamers to mid-level A-teamers with the occasional high-level A-teamer.
Would SKT, KT, and CJ be dominant? Or would STX have a better chance in the SC2 Proleague if they invest more into their SC2 division?
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Well if SC2 becomes actually big in proleague, expect the big teams to buy a player or two.
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Blizzard is pushing for SC2. People just want to see current BW legends succeed in SC2. I think the move would be a good one. BW time is long over, but it doesn't mean it wasn't a great game. It was one of the pinnacles of e-sports for a decade....
Things move on. Everyone hates change, but more often then not change can be a good thing.
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I am going to lol my face off when flash/jaedong/bisu all switch to sc2 and literally wreck every single player. Just for reference, for the sc2 players who didn't play BW, here's a comparison:
Boxer/Nada/Julyzerg = Old Veterans who had already retired from BW because they were getting too old/out of shape. They come and do very well in sc2.
MC/MVP = Like college ball players. Not really that good at BW at all but they tried at least. B-team type players, never really seen in any known games, didn't do that well. In fact I had never even heard of them before sc2. They come and dominate sc2.
Flash/Jaedong/Bisu = Dominated BW so hard it's not even funny. Their playstyle is just...genius-like. I can't even begin to comprehend how to explain how good these guys are. These guys are like the top players of any sport. More than that, they are the INNOVATORS of the top players of any sport.
I seriously would jump for joy like a fucking school girl if they came to sc2.
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On October 29 2011 13:17 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 13:12 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 12:53 Oktyabr wrote:On October 29 2011 12:49 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 12:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 29 2011 12:42 Talin wrote:On October 29 2011 12:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 29 2011 12:15 DEN1ED wrote:On October 29 2011 11:10 ScoutingDrone wrote:
BW is the equivalent of wheelchair basketball, and SC2 is the equivalent of normal basketball.
BW mechanics that makes it "harder" are nothing but unnecessary handicaps placed on players to make it "harder".
A few examples are:
limited to 12 units per control group (unnecessary)
no rally point for workers to minerals (unnecessary)
cannot put multiple buildings in one control group (unnecessary)
As you can see, what makes BW "harder" are mostly caused by unnecessary handicaps, just like how wheelchair basketball is "harder" because you're handicapped and can't use your legs, but this doesn't make wheelchair basketball "better" than normal basketball.
But why is being able to rally your worker to mineral patches NECESSARY? You can do it yourself. I'm sure if Blizzard had the idea and/or technology back then to automatically rally workers to the mineral patches and start mining, they would have. Seeing as they've done it in SC2, I don't see why they'd remove it in the future. You shouldn't be so sure about things. There were absolutely no technological or engine barriers to implementing this. As long as rally points are implemented, not only is it straightforward to have workers automine, but I can't imagine a program structure in which it would take more than a few harmless lines of code that wouldn't affect performance in the slightest. As for the idea, it's actually very intuitive so I doubt it never crossed anyone's mind. Besides, there were a few RTS games back in the time that had automatic gathering of resources (though not in the SC2 sense, more like in make a building and it gives you stuff over time sense), they could have gotten the idea from a number of places. It was just a design decision. Starcraft 1 was a classic RTS in every sense of the word - you order units, units finish building/training, and then you command units and tell them what you want them to do. It's actually a very clean and simple solution. And yet they didn't implement it, and it's not to make the 'game harder for esports' because there was no motivation or foreknowledge at all to make SC1 a professional esport when they were developing it, but simply a design choice. They realized it was a bad choice, and fixed it in SC2. If it wasn't a bad idea, they wouldn't have allowed automining after worker creation in SC2. Honestly if we are gonna go down that road, why not get rid of creep spread and larva inject, or just make them automatic, seeing as there is never a time you shouldn't be doing this. Because they aren't even comparable, and you do not want to have them done ALL the time. Creep spread requires decision making to place a tumor at a preferable location for efficiency, and there are times when you wouldn't want to spread creep because there are hellions waiting at your door step. Likewise some people wouldn't want to spend that 25 energy on injecting immediately, and would rather use it on a fresh creep tumor or even pool up for transfuse. There is decision making at every turn. A freshly created worker is going to be mining 95% of the time. 99% of the time the queen will be injecting (unless its the second built queen which drops a tumor before going to the natural and then after that its all injects), if you do a Spanishiwa build you will already have some queens for creep tumors or transfusion. The amount of decision making for creep spread is the same as deciding which mineral patch I should send my scv to (which adds to mining efficiency) and whether I'm being harassed or not. 95% of the time its creep spread finished, creep spread some more, just like sending workers to mine. Honestly its a really poor argument to start off with, because when SC3 comes out, im sure SC2 fanboys will also start complaining about toggled unit production, automatic creep spread, and more C&C units. No, because you actually have to decide on where to extend the tumor. Sometimes you need it to go inward towards your base, sometimes you need to connect your natural to your main, and sometimes you need it to go in different directions if your natural is wide and open. So no, AI won't help you in WHERE would you want it at all. And again, you don't want it to spread when it's within sight of enemy forces, because for obvious reasons they would just walk forward to kill it (i.e hellions). There are also cases of queens dropping multiple tumors at the same spot in order to make creep spread go even faster. So yes, queens can pool energy for multiple reasons.
Sigh ... why would you pool energy for dropping creep tumors in the same spot? The only reason that happens is because the energy was pooled anyway, it wasn't a decision, there was just lots of free energy to spend.
You always spend your energy, if you need more energy you make more queens because you are gonna use them for defense anyway, against banshees, etc.
When an scv pops out of a building, sometimes I won't send it to mine, sometimes I will make it build a building instead (as it pops) so that I don't have to pull an scv that's mining, sometimes I will send it to a mineral patch that isn't being mined even if I'm at a stage where I have 15 scvs mining. Sometimes I won't send it to mine because I'm busy micro-ing. In the end it doesn't make that much of a difference, it can be automated. Hell I can automine my scv after building anyways.
Once you get past early game there is almost no decision making in creep spreading, because you have so many creep tumors its just a matter of how fast and how often you can remember to creep spread. People lose creep tumors all the time, in the end you have so many creep tumors it doesn't even matter, you just lay more of them.
In terms of energy-usage, I said toggle. If you want to pool energy, toggle-off auto-inject. Thus achieving the same effect without the need for useless clicks.
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i think some of those profiles are accurate. just look at the stats. midas has a 75% win rate as terran. what are the chances someone is smurfing with this name?
hyvaa has over 100 games this season, while these current sc2 pros are hovering around 50
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On October 29 2011 13:32 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 13:17 Oktyabr wrote:On October 29 2011 13:12 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 12:53 Oktyabr wrote:On October 29 2011 12:49 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 12:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 29 2011 12:42 Talin wrote:On October 29 2011 12:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 29 2011 12:15 DEN1ED wrote:On October 29 2011 11:10 ScoutingDrone wrote:
BW is the equivalent of wheelchair basketball, and SC2 is the equivalent of normal basketball.
BW mechanics that makes it "harder" are nothing but unnecessary handicaps placed on players to make it "harder".
A few examples are:
limited to 12 units per control group (unnecessary)
no rally point for workers to minerals (unnecessary)
cannot put multiple buildings in one control group (unnecessary)
As you can see, what makes BW "harder" are mostly caused by unnecessary handicaps, just like how wheelchair basketball is "harder" because you're handicapped and can't use your legs, but this doesn't make wheelchair basketball "better" than normal basketball.
But why is being able to rally your worker to mineral patches NECESSARY? You can do it yourself. I'm sure if Blizzard had the idea and/or technology back then to automatically rally workers to the mineral patches and start mining, they would have. Seeing as they've done it in SC2, I don't see why they'd remove it in the future. You shouldn't be so sure about things. There were absolutely no technological or engine barriers to implementing this. As long as rally points are implemented, not only is it straightforward to have workers automine, but I can't imagine a program structure in which it would take more than a few harmless lines of code that wouldn't affect performance in the slightest. As for the idea, it's actually very intuitive so I doubt it never crossed anyone's mind. Besides, there were a few RTS games back in the time that had automatic gathering of resources (though not in the SC2 sense, more like in make a building and it gives you stuff over time sense), they could have gotten the idea from a number of places. It was just a design decision. Starcraft 1 was a classic RTS in every sense of the word - you order units, units finish building/training, and then you command units and tell them what you want them to do. It's actually a very clean and simple solution. And yet they didn't implement it, and it's not to make the 'game harder for esports' because there was no motivation or foreknowledge at all to make SC1 a professional esport when they were developing it, but simply a design choice. They realized it was a bad choice, and fixed it in SC2. If it wasn't a bad idea, they wouldn't have allowed automining after worker creation in SC2. Honestly if we are gonna go down that road, why not get rid of creep spread and larva inject, or just make them automatic, seeing as there is never a time you shouldn't be doing this. Because they aren't even comparable, and you do not want to have them done ALL the time. Creep spread requires decision making to place a tumor at a preferable location for efficiency, and there are times when you wouldn't want to spread creep because there are hellions waiting at your door step. Likewise some people wouldn't want to spend that 25 energy on injecting immediately, and would rather use it on a fresh creep tumor or even pool up for transfuse. There is decision making at every turn. A freshly created worker is going to be mining 95% of the time. 99% of the time the queen will be injecting (unless its the second built queen which drops a tumor before going to the natural and then after that its all injects), if you do a Spanishiwa build you will already have some queens for creep tumors or transfusion. The amount of decision making for creep spread is the same as deciding which mineral patch I should send my scv to (which adds to mining efficiency) and whether I'm being harassed or not. 95% of the time its creep spread finished, creep spread some more, just like sending workers to mine. Honestly its a really poor argument to start off with, because when SC3 comes out, im sure SC2 fanboys will also start complaining about toggled unit production, automatic creep spread, and more C&C units. No, because you actually have to decide on where to extend the tumor. Sometimes you need it to go inward towards your base, sometimes you need to connect your natural to your main, and sometimes you need it to go in different directions if your natural is wide and open. So no, AI won't help you in WHERE would you want it at all. And again, you don't want it to spread when it's within sight of enemy forces, because for obvious reasons they would just walk forward to kill it (i.e hellions). There are also cases of queens dropping multiple tumors at the same spot in order to make creep spread go even faster. So yes, queens can pool energy for multiple reasons. Sigh ... why would you pool energy for dropping creep tumors in the same spot? The only reason that happens is because the energy was pooled anyway, it wasn't a decision, there was just lots of free energy to spend. You always spend your energy, if you need more energy you make more queens because you are gonna use them for defense anyway, against banshees, etc. When an scv pops out of a building, sometimes I won't send it to mine, sometimes I will make it build a building instead (as it pops) so that I don't have to pull an scv that's mining, sometimes I will send it to a mineral patch that isn't being mined even if I'm at a stage where I have 15 scvs mining. Sometimes I won't send it to mine because I'm busy micro-ing. In the end it doesn't make that much of a difference, it can be automated. Hell I can automine my scv after building anyways. Once you get past early game there is almost no decision making in creep spreading, because you have so many creep tumors its just a matter of how fast and how often you can remember to creep spread. People lose creep tumors all the time, in the end you have so many creep tumors it doesn't even matter, you just lay more of them. If you were gonna automate creep spread though you wouldn't have tumors, you would just have the creep continuously spread from your buildings, thus achieving the same effect without the need for useless clicks.
Because obviously sometimes you don't have a choice. You can't just drop a tumor in front of hellions; you have to get rid of them first and this leads to pooling of energy.
Sometimes you don't need that many injects immediately because you don't have the money to spend it, dropping multiple tumors at the same spot gets rid of that energy. You don't want the creep to naturally spread in *all* directions, sometimes you need it to connect to a third that happens to be very far away (i.e. Taldarim Altar where you weren't using the one that had rocks), or you want it to go towards a focused direction where you can stop a marine tank push easier. All of this depends on the enemy's spawning position relative to yours.
How would automating creep spread without creep tumors give other races a chance to remove the creep spread? The existence of a tumor adds to the strategic depth of the game because now it forces other races to consider spending resources to get rid of it.
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On October 29 2011 13:31 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Boxer/Nada/Julyzerg = Old Veterans who had already retired from BW because they were getting too old/out of shape..
No. Everyone else just got better and they had no noticeable talent to keep up with others anymore.
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On October 29 2011 13:42 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 13:32 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 13:17 Oktyabr wrote:On October 29 2011 13:12 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 12:53 Oktyabr wrote:On October 29 2011 12:49 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 12:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 29 2011 12:42 Talin wrote:On October 29 2011 12:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 29 2011 12:15 DEN1ED wrote:
[quote]
But why is being able to rally your worker to mineral patches NECESSARY? You can do it yourself. I'm sure if Blizzard had the idea and/or technology back then to automatically rally workers to the mineral patches and start mining, they would have. Seeing as they've done it in SC2, I don't see why they'd remove it in the future. You shouldn't be so sure about things. There were absolutely no technological or engine barriers to implementing this. As long as rally points are implemented, not only is it straightforward to have workers automine, but I can't imagine a program structure in which it would take more than a few harmless lines of code that wouldn't affect performance in the slightest. As for the idea, it's actually very intuitive so I doubt it never crossed anyone's mind. Besides, there were a few RTS games back in the time that had automatic gathering of resources (though not in the SC2 sense, more like in make a building and it gives you stuff over time sense), they could have gotten the idea from a number of places. It was just a design decision. Starcraft 1 was a classic RTS in every sense of the word - you order units, units finish building/training, and then you command units and tell them what you want them to do. It's actually a very clean and simple solution. And yet they didn't implement it, and it's not to make the 'game harder for esports' because there was no motivation or foreknowledge at all to make SC1 a professional esport when they were developing it, but simply a design choice. They realized it was a bad choice, and fixed it in SC2. If it wasn't a bad idea, they wouldn't have allowed automining after worker creation in SC2. Honestly if we are gonna go down that road, why not get rid of creep spread and larva inject, or just make them automatic, seeing as there is never a time you shouldn't be doing this. Because they aren't even comparable, and you do not want to have them done ALL the time. Creep spread requires decision making to place a tumor at a preferable location for efficiency, and there are times when you wouldn't want to spread creep because there are hellions waiting at your door step. Likewise some people wouldn't want to spend that 25 energy on injecting immediately, and would rather use it on a fresh creep tumor or even pool up for transfuse. There is decision making at every turn. A freshly created worker is going to be mining 95% of the time. 99% of the time the queen will be injecting (unless its the second built queen which drops a tumor before going to the natural and then after that its all injects), if you do a Spanishiwa build you will already have some queens for creep tumors or transfusion. The amount of decision making for creep spread is the same as deciding which mineral patch I should send my scv to (which adds to mining efficiency) and whether I'm being harassed or not. 95% of the time its creep spread finished, creep spread some more, just like sending workers to mine. Honestly its a really poor argument to start off with, because when SC3 comes out, im sure SC2 fanboys will also start complaining about toggled unit production, automatic creep spread, and more C&C units. No, because you actually have to decide on where to extend the tumor. Sometimes you need it to go inward towards your base, sometimes you need to connect your natural to your main, and sometimes you need it to go in different directions if your natural is wide and open. So no, AI won't help you in WHERE would you want it at all. And again, you don't want it to spread when it's within sight of enemy forces, because for obvious reasons they would just walk forward to kill it (i.e hellions). There are also cases of queens dropping multiple tumors at the same spot in order to make creep spread go even faster. So yes, queens can pool energy for multiple reasons. Sigh ... why would you pool energy for dropping creep tumors in the same spot? The only reason that happens is because the energy was pooled anyway, it wasn't a decision, there was just lots of free energy to spend. You always spend your energy, if you need more energy you make more queens because you are gonna use them for defense anyway, against banshees, etc. When an scv pops out of a building, sometimes I won't send it to mine, sometimes I will make it build a building instead (as it pops) so that I don't have to pull an scv that's mining, sometimes I will send it to a mineral patch that isn't being mined even if I'm at a stage where I have 15 scvs mining. Sometimes I won't send it to mine because I'm busy micro-ing. In the end it doesn't make that much of a difference, it can be automated. Hell I can automine my scv after building anyways. Once you get past early game there is almost no decision making in creep spreading, because you have so many creep tumors its just a matter of how fast and how often you can remember to creep spread. People lose creep tumors all the time, in the end you have so many creep tumors it doesn't even matter, you just lay more of them. If you were gonna automate creep spread though you wouldn't have tumors, you would just have the creep continuously spread from your buildings, thus achieving the same effect without the need for useless clicks. Because obviously sometimes you don't have a choice. You can't just drop a tumor in front of hellions; you have to get rid of them first and this leads to pooling of energy. Sometimes you don't need that many injects immediately because you don't have the money to spend it, dropping multiple tumors at the same spot gets rid of that energy. How would automating creep spread without creep tumors give other races a chance to remove the creep spread? The existence of a tumor adds to the strategic depth of the game because now it forces other races to consider spending resources to get rid of it.
Exactly, taking MBS, automine, smart-casting away from the game also removes strategic depth from the game. There are players that can do certain builds that no other player can, also how can Savior distract players and create opportunities cost effective encounters when players have less to focus on? What about simcity? You no longer need to place your buildings in a way to efficiently macro. Smart-casting results in weaker storms, making storm drops not as effective.
Like I said Inject would be a toggle, so you can still pool energy just turn it off, but you can still inject without the need for useless clicks. "Strategic depth" is still there, you just don't have to click every time you want to inject.
And obviously I'm not going to send a worker to mine when my base is being harassed either, just like when there are units near my creep, which people don't seem to care about more often than not anyway and suicide their creep tumors to siege tanks.
Face it, its a hypocritical argument. You want the mechanical difficulty of SC2, you don't like it when SC2 mechanics are made easier, just like BW players don't like when their mechanics are made easier. Its the exact same thing.
There are plenty of "useless" actions in SC2 which you don't want to change, but are quick to point out the "useless" actions in BW.
Like I said its a terrible argument to point out, and the same argument is going to appear when SC3 appears.
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On October 29 2011 13:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:
taking MBS, automine, smart-casting away from the game also removes strategic depth from the game
I stopped reading here
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On October 29 2011 13:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 13:42 Oktyabr wrote:On October 29 2011 13:32 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 13:17 Oktyabr wrote:On October 29 2011 13:12 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 12:53 Oktyabr wrote:On October 29 2011 12:49 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 29 2011 12:44 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 29 2011 12:42 Talin wrote:On October 29 2011 12:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
[quote]
I'm sure if Blizzard had the idea and/or technology back then to automatically rally workers to the mineral patches and start mining, they would have. Seeing as they've done it in SC2, I don't see why they'd remove it in the future. You shouldn't be so sure about things. There were absolutely no technological or engine barriers to implementing this. As long as rally points are implemented, not only is it straightforward to have workers automine, but I can't imagine a program structure in which it would take more than a few harmless lines of code that wouldn't affect performance in the slightest. As for the idea, it's actually very intuitive so I doubt it never crossed anyone's mind. Besides, there were a few RTS games back in the time that had automatic gathering of resources (though not in the SC2 sense, more like in make a building and it gives you stuff over time sense), they could have gotten the idea from a number of places. It was just a design decision. Starcraft 1 was a classic RTS in every sense of the word - you order units, units finish building/training, and then you command units and tell them what you want them to do. It's actually a very clean and simple solution. And yet they didn't implement it, and it's not to make the 'game harder for esports' because there was no motivation or foreknowledge at all to make SC1 a professional esport when they were developing it, but simply a design choice. They realized it was a bad choice, and fixed it in SC2. If it wasn't a bad idea, they wouldn't have allowed automining after worker creation in SC2. Honestly if we are gonna go down that road, why not get rid of creep spread and larva inject, or just make them automatic, seeing as there is never a time you shouldn't be doing this. Because they aren't even comparable, and you do not want to have them done ALL the time. Creep spread requires decision making to place a tumor at a preferable location for efficiency, and there are times when you wouldn't want to spread creep because there are hellions waiting at your door step. Likewise some people wouldn't want to spend that 25 energy on injecting immediately, and would rather use it on a fresh creep tumor or even pool up for transfuse. There is decision making at every turn. A freshly created worker is going to be mining 95% of the time. 99% of the time the queen will be injecting (unless its the second built queen which drops a tumor before going to the natural and then after that its all injects), if you do a Spanishiwa build you will already have some queens for creep tumors or transfusion. The amount of decision making for creep spread is the same as deciding which mineral patch I should send my scv to (which adds to mining efficiency) and whether I'm being harassed or not. 95% of the time its creep spread finished, creep spread some more, just like sending workers to mine. Honestly its a really poor argument to start off with, because when SC3 comes out, im sure SC2 fanboys will also start complaining about toggled unit production, automatic creep spread, and more C&C units. No, because you actually have to decide on where to extend the tumor. Sometimes you need it to go inward towards your base, sometimes you need to connect your natural to your main, and sometimes you need it to go in different directions if your natural is wide and open. So no, AI won't help you in WHERE would you want it at all. And again, you don't want it to spread when it's within sight of enemy forces, because for obvious reasons they would just walk forward to kill it (i.e hellions). There are also cases of queens dropping multiple tumors at the same spot in order to make creep spread go even faster. So yes, queens can pool energy for multiple reasons. Sigh ... why would you pool energy for dropping creep tumors in the same spot? The only reason that happens is because the energy was pooled anyway, it wasn't a decision, there was just lots of free energy to spend. You always spend your energy, if you need more energy you make more queens because you are gonna use them for defense anyway, against banshees, etc. When an scv pops out of a building, sometimes I won't send it to mine, sometimes I will make it build a building instead (as it pops) so that I don't have to pull an scv that's mining, sometimes I will send it to a mineral patch that isn't being mined even if I'm at a stage where I have 15 scvs mining. Sometimes I won't send it to mine because I'm busy micro-ing. In the end it doesn't make that much of a difference, it can be automated. Hell I can automine my scv after building anyways. Once you get past early game there is almost no decision making in creep spreading, because you have so many creep tumors its just a matter of how fast and how often you can remember to creep spread. People lose creep tumors all the time, in the end you have so many creep tumors it doesn't even matter, you just lay more of them. If you were gonna automate creep spread though you wouldn't have tumors, you would just have the creep continuously spread from your buildings, thus achieving the same effect without the need for useless clicks. Because obviously sometimes you don't have a choice. You can't just drop a tumor in front of hellions; you have to get rid of them first and this leads to pooling of energy. Sometimes you don't need that many injects immediately because you don't have the money to spend it, dropping multiple tumors at the same spot gets rid of that energy. How would automating creep spread without creep tumors give other races a chance to remove the creep spread? The existence of a tumor adds to the strategic depth of the game because now it forces other races to consider spending resources to get rid of it. Exactly, taking MBS, automine, smart-casting away from the game also removes strategic depth from the game. There are players that can do certain builds that no other player can, also how can Savior distract players and create opportunities cost effective encounters when players have less to focus on? Like I said Inject would be a toggle, so you can still pool energy just turn it off, but you can still inject without the need for useless clicks. "Strategic depth" is still there, you just don't have to click every time you want to inject. And obviously I'm not going to send a worker to mine when my base is being harassed either, just like when there are units near my creep, which people don't seem to care about more often than not anyway and suicide their creep tumors to siege tanks. Face it, its a hypocritical argument. You want the mechanical difficulty of SC2, you don't like it when SC2 mechanics are made easier, just like BW players don't like when their mechanics are made easier. Its the exact same thing. There are plenty of "useless" actions in SC2 which you don't want to change, but are quick to point out the "useless" actions in BW. Like I said its a terrible argument to point out, and the same argument is going to appear when SC3 appears.
You're confusing decision making and mechanical difficulty. I give up.
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On October 29 2011 13:56 Lordwar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 13:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:
taking MBS, automine, smart-casting away from the game also removes strategic depth from the game I stopped reading here
In an indirect way it does add strategic depth because it makes APM a much more important resource. I don't like the way that he phrased that statement though.
Regardless, as I've said before, any sport or esport requires mechanical difficulty to be successful. It is mechanical difficulty (or technique/ball control/etc in sports), after all, which separates the top players from amateur players and spectators, and accordingly, makes it exciting for people to watch. Strategy is great but it's for thinkers of the game or sport, rather than for viewers.
I'm not saying SC2 should drop automine, MBS, unlimited control grouping and smart-casting, but it is undeniable that watching a BW player like Flash overcome such mechanical difficulty to pull off such amazing gameplay in BW is much more incredible than watching a player like IdrA do so in SC2.
There is a balance between mechanical difficulty and strategical emphasis that equates roughly to the compromise between an esport and a strategy game.
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On October 29 2011 14:06 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 13:56 Lordwar wrote:On October 29 2011 13:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:
taking MBS, automine, smart-casting away from the game also removes strategic depth from the game I stopped reading here In an indirect way it does add strategic depth because it makes APM a much more important resource. I don't like the way that he phrased that statement though. Regardless, as I've said before, any sport or esport requires mechanical difficulty to be successful. It is mechanical difficulty (or technique/ball control/etc in sports), after all, which separates the top players from amateur players and spectators, and accordingly, makes it exciting for people to watch. Strategy is great but it's for thinkers of the game or sport, rather than for viewers. I'm not saying SC2 should drop automine, MBS, unlimited control grouping and smart-casting, but it is undeniable that watching a BW player like Flash overcome such mechanical difficulty to pull off such amazing gameplay in BW is much more incredible than watching a player like IdrA do so in SC2. There is a balance between mechanical difficulty and strategical emphasis that equates roughly to the compromise between an esport and a strategy game.
Strategy is not related to automine or so
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I like that quote that the OP copy/pasted but just like SC:BW that took many years to become what it is, SC2 will take the same amount to become that balanced, yet SC:BW is dead outside of Korea and SC2 is archiving what BW could never do. GO SC2!
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SC2 Players: Consider that there are people who still love the BW community and feel like their game and community are preemptively being killed. Everybody who played BW and SC2 at a high level know that, in their current form, BW is a more difficult and more balanced game. It's an exciting time for SC2, but be respectful to the BW community.
BW Players: Consider that there's a large community of new players that are just excited. They aren't necessarily being disrespectful, they are just excited for the possibilities coming to the game they love. Don't assume they are knowledgable about your community and your love and are purposefully and spitefully attacking it.
Sounds cool, but...
What about the BW players dissing out SC2?
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Remember when BW was being played many years ago the concept of macro, micro and multi-tasking is foreign..
I guess that speaking out your opinion about a game nowadays is called dissing...
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On October 29 2011 14:07 dire wrote:
I like that quote that the OP copy/pasted but just like SC:BW that took many years to become what it is, SC2 will take the same amount to become that balanced, yet SC:BW is dead outside of Korea and SC2 is archiving what BW could never do. GO SC2!
Um there was only ever 3 balance patches in it's history. And the last was 2001. Balance isn't even the problem people have with the game.
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I actually got chills from the rumor mill, like the chills you get when Freeza/Buu/etc super powerful and possibly evil person is gaining power and will overwhelm all of earth soon.
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On October 29 2011 14:09 mansa wrote:
I guess that speaking out your opinion about a game nowadays is called dissing...
Only when being disrespectful and trying to sound superior.
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United States7639 Posts
Things like auto-mining, MBS, those are all fine. What I have a problem with is large control groups, which inevitably lead to huge death ball battles, as we've all pretty much agreed on already, and the removal of intense micro requiring units in favor of units that are far less so.
You ask if it's watching pros send workers to mine that's interesting. Nope. It's units that are skill-intensive and high-reward that are fun to watch. Things like reaver harass and storm drops. I know the reaver wouldn't have fit into SC2 very well, because it relied on a buggy AI to balance out its ridiculous damage. But you'd think that they'd implement a substitute that also required a high level of attention, care, and micro to use properly. Instead, you just get colossi, which are the epitome of ball of death lasers pewpew a-move. I won't miss watching Bisu send probes to mine, but I sure as hell will miss him destroy worker lines with fantastic reaver/shuttle play (or lose his shuttle and make us all facepalm).
Likewise with storms, smartcast made it so that storms became easier to use. Just mass HT and they can all rapidly cast storms in succession over a huge area so nobody would ever be able to dodge out of it. So storms themselves had to be nerfed to compensate. Less damage, less aoe, and as a result, less exciting. Landing one means almost nothing. People screamed for Jangbi's fantastic storms because they were devastatingly destructive, ridiculously hard to pull off, and utterly game changing. I don't think anyone will ever cry STOOOOOOORRRRMMMUUUUUUU for the storms in SC2. There's just not as much excitement or tension there.
So yeah. You're right about it being good that unnecessary handicaps were removed. But exchanging units that truly benefited the most from micro skills for a-move units, or dumbing units and spell-casting down and consequently having to nerf them to compensate? I have a problem with that.
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EPT
