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On October 29 2011 08:25 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 08:22 ManaO wrote:
Brood War is not balanced, even now.
Starcraft 2 is not balanced
Brood War requires more mechanical skill. Macroing in sc2 is piss easy compared to BW, and if someone tries to deny this he's just bias or hasn't played bw
Starcraft 2 requires more tactical skill. Not to say that BW didn't as well, but it's basically the main skill required for sc2.
They are two different games, there is no real reason to discuss what will happen because only time will tell
Oh, and i'm happy to see the BW pros switch over! I'm just curious. Did you ever really follow BW, or are you just stating an uninformed opinion as fact?
I followed BW since it came out. In my post I don't say that sc2 requires MORE tactics than bw, although it might be read that way, I'm saying that tactic is in percentage more important than in bw, given the relatively "easy" (make sure you read the "relatively") macro mechanics
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Go read up on shit, most top players will say BW has a way higher skill ceiling atm, with everything (Micro/Macro, Strategy, ect...). Saying SC2 is better because the mechanics are easier to learn and master so you can focus more on strategy is retarded.
In BW you have to do both at far higher levels, stuff like miss chance on firing up high ground, lurkers, mines, ect..
Why did you have to do that? Because you needed it in order to win against the opponent. The game is played versus the opponent, not the game AI. In other words, the skill ceiling is dependent on the competition, not the game.
You can not legitimately claim the skill ceiling is too low in SC2 unless you are also claiming that winning is entirely up to luck. Otherwise, the fact is that people do not win more than ~50% of the games they play. Ergo, there is no skill ceiling.
The concept of a skill ceiling can not apply to a game of a certain degree of complexity (which SC:BW and SC2 conforms to by far) which is played against other human (not pre-programmed) competitors.
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On October 29 2011 09:09 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 19:59 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/w8iSy.jpg) Jaedong: I'll show you muta micro! I never watched brood war pro-matches too much but this picture gave me the sickest nerd chills; I can't even begin to comprehend how much this picture means to BW followers
Haha, he's actually just sniffing.
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On October 29 2011 09:04 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 08:42 fant0m wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. Honestly this is wrong, and I think all the "BW scene" people are putting up this same straw man, it's really their only argument against SC2. A better player never loses due to "luck." If you lose due to "luck" in SC2, you aren't the better player, period. The problem with this position is that you are assuming that we have "good" pro players already playing SC2. A truly "good" pro player is consistent. No one except MVP and Nestea is consistent in SC2 so far, literally no one else. And Nestea doesn't have the extreme APM to match MVP's consistency. MVP obviously doesn't have 100% win rate, but the only people he loses to are the ones right behind him, like MMA and Bomber (and Nestea once). Even in his foreign tournaments, he went through MLG Anaheim without losing (winner's bracket -> won grand final), went through Blizzcon dropping only 1 set (to Nestea, and one of the games was close spawn Shattered Temple). Seriously, go take a look at MVP's record on gomtv.net. Take out the BO1's in group stages and team leagues. Look at his record in BO3+ and his individual league record. Ever since January, when he first established himself, he has lost to Ganzi (Super Tournament - June 1st), 2 Protoss (in March- when Protoss was unbeatable/had amulet), Bomber, and MMA in BO3+ series. That is IT. The Ganzi loss is honestly his only blemish in the last 10 MONTHS. Beyond that, he lost to Bomber and MMA, the only people close to him. That is not the sign of a "luck-based" game. He also has a loss vs DRG in AoL. Though I'm particularly amused by you explaining away his losses to Protoss (when he was in a huge slump and just playing poorly in TvP) as "Protoss unbeatable because of Amulet", when the PvT winrate was only like 55% at the time. Really desperate to make our point, aren't we? I don't even think Amulet made an appearance in those games. In any case, find a Protoss or Zerg with a similar quality, and we can talk. Terran is widely considered to be the most cheese-proof race with the most stable mirror matchup, and is at the moment very clearly the best race in the game. It's not especially surprising someone could consisitently do well with it. But if you look at Nestea's record, he has quite a few losses to players most would consider worse than him. Not to speak of Protoss players, they're complete rollercoasters. If anything, MVP sort of proves that the game would be less luck based if everybody played Terran. So I guess we should be happy about them dominating Code S, at least the best Terrans win a lot of the time.
1) Online tournament- not a full GSL, 2) Oh no, he lost one series to one of the best TvZers in the world? SC2 is totally random/luck-based!
3) Are you kidding me? July was literally the only person to beat a Protoss (he beat a single Protoss, anypro) in Code S BO3+ in March besides other Protoss, and he got STOMPED by MC in the finals. Protoss DOMINATED March, you're blind if you think otherwise. Learn to watch games instead of looking at a single statistic. Why do you think they got nerfed right after that season?
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On October 29 2011 09:22 rift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 09:09 XRaDiiX wrote:On October 28 2011 19:59 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Jaedong: I'll show you muta micro! I never watched brood war pro-matches too much but this picture gave me the sickest nerd chills; I can't even begin to comprehend how much this picture means to BW followers Haha, he's actually just sniffing.
....the blood in the water....
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Mvp is not gonna win championships anymore when Bisu and Flash arrives
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And people think terran is op now lol, just wait until the Ultimate Weapon switches..
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So this really worries me, since I don't see KESPA letting the existing SC2 teams play with their precious proleague teams, and I don't see the foreign scene being included in the way it is right now. I actually think this bodes the death of foreign pro sc2.
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On October 29 2011 09:31 strongandbig wrote:
So this really worries me, since I don't see KESPA letting the existing SC2 teams play with their precious proleague teams, and I don't see the foreign scene being included in the way it is right now. I actually think this bodes the death of foreign pro sc2.
With the major tournies outside of Korea it won't at all.
Dreamhack, MLG, ect, ect
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On October 29 2011 09:31 kevinkillyou wrote:
Mvp is not gonna win championships anymore when Bisu and Flash arrives
He's not going to win championships anymore even when Sun arrives. 
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On October 29 2011 09:31 kevinkillyou wrote:
Mvp is not gonna win championships anymore when Bisu and Flash arrives
what an ignorant statement,maybe MVP found his niche in SC2,
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On October 29 2011 09:36 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 09:31 kevinkillyou wrote:
Mvp is not gonna win championships anymore when Bisu and Flash arrives what an ignorant statement,maybe MVP found his niche in SC2,
Mvp is my favorite player, but that's a wild wet dream bro.
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On October 29 2011 09:36 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 09:31 kevinkillyou wrote:
Mvp is not gonna win championships anymore when Bisu and Flash arrives what an ignorant statement,maybe MVP found his niche in SC2,
It doesn't matter if Sc2 is his 'niche' Bisu and Flash are better at essentially a more difficult version of the game. And even if that weren't true, Bisu and Flash will be on BW style pro gaming teams which practice 10x harder then any Sc2 team right(Except Maybe slayers).
Flash's RTS intelligence a lone puts him a head of MVP same with Bisu's Unreal multi tasking.
I don't remember who said it(Think it was FxoBoss on slasher) but they said it right. "Its not a question of if the best BW players will come over and dominate, its a question of whether or not the lower A class players can come over and compete" Not the exact quote but the general idea.
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On October 29 2011 09:23 fant0m wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 09:04 Toadvine wrote:On October 29 2011 08:42 fant0m wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. Honestly this is wrong, and I think all the "BW scene" people are putting up this same straw man, it's really their only argument against SC2. A better player never loses due to "luck." If you lose due to "luck" in SC2, you aren't the better player, period. The problem with this position is that you are assuming that we have "good" pro players already playing SC2. A truly "good" pro player is consistent. No one except MVP and Nestea is consistent in SC2 so far, literally no one else. And Nestea doesn't have the extreme APM to match MVP's consistency. MVP obviously doesn't have 100% win rate, but the only people he loses to are the ones right behind him, like MMA and Bomber (and Nestea once). Even in his foreign tournaments, he went through MLG Anaheim without losing (winner's bracket -> won grand final), went through Blizzcon dropping only 1 set (to Nestea, and one of the games was close spawn Shattered Temple). Seriously, go take a look at MVP's record on gomtv.net. Take out the BO1's in group stages and team leagues. Look at his record in BO3+ and his individual league record. Ever since January, when he first established himself, he has lost to Ganzi (Super Tournament - June 1st), 2 Protoss (in March- when Protoss was unbeatable/had amulet), Bomber, and MMA in BO3+ series. That is IT. The Ganzi loss is honestly his only blemish in the last 10 MONTHS. Beyond that, he lost to Bomber and MMA, the only people close to him. That is not the sign of a "luck-based" game. He also has a loss vs DRG in AoL. Though I'm particularly amused by you explaining away his losses to Protoss (when he was in a huge slump and just playing poorly in TvP) as "Protoss unbeatable because of Amulet", when the PvT winrate was only like 55% at the time. Really desperate to make our point, aren't we? I don't even think Amulet made an appearance in those games. In any case, find a Protoss or Zerg with a similar quality, and we can talk. Terran is widely considered to be the most cheese-proof race with the most stable mirror matchup, and is at the moment very clearly the best race in the game. It's not especially surprising someone could consisitently do well with it. But if you look at Nestea's record, he has quite a few losses to players most would consider worse than him. Not to speak of Protoss players, they're complete rollercoasters. If anything, MVP sort of proves that the game would be less luck based if everybody played Terran. So I guess we should be happy about them dominating Code S, at least the best Terrans win a lot of the time. 1) Online tournament- not a full GSL, 2) Oh no, he lost one series to one of the best TvZers in the world? SC2 is totally random/luck-based! 3) Are you kidding me? July was literally the only person to beat a Protoss (he beat a single Protoss, anypro) in Code S BO3+ in March besides other Protoss, and he got STOMPED by MC in the finals. Protoss DOMINATED March, you're blind if you think otherwise. Learn to watch games instead of looking at a single statistic. Why do you think they got nerfed right after that season?
sC also beat Tester. A good amount of Protoss didn't even make it out of groupstages. I mean, what the hell are you even arguing? You think MC beat July because Amulet was imbalanced? Do YOU actually watch the games? Like half the Terran and Zerg losses were to 2 base timings and various gimmicky builds, that were promptly figured out. sC vs san on Terminus was NOT representative of that whole tournament, ffs.
Protoss got nerfed after actually doing well vs Terran in one GSL Season, because Blizzard have a retarded balancing policy. You could put Amulet back in, and it wouldn't make Protoss overpowered in current PvT.
You're deflecting anyway. MVP definitely didn't lose to Genius or Alicia because of Amulet.
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damn... I don't know what to say!
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The whole skill ceiling thing is stupid and just should be never mentioned; it's distracting away from genuine problems with the game simply because 'omg but players can do 10 simultaneous drops and control 40 marines at once now' and the people who don't like SC2 don't make their arguments clear enough.
Let's put it this way; 350 APM in 5 seconds of combat is like 30 or so actions; not that many really. It's going to be 30 actions in both games because a BW player is still going to focus quite a lot of time to battle micro. Since SC2 battles are actually over so quickly in comparison due to various game mechanics players don't have more actions to spare for unit micro at all; maybe even less. Like when i've watched TvZ and a massive group of banelings simply roll into an army and hundreds of supply is gone in a second, do people really think players are going to somehow pack 1000 APM into a few seconds to control perfectly?
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MVP lost in TvP because he was bad at it. There was no imbalance going on, lol.
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Man so good for SC2, but BW can't die yet can it? Lets hope we have some both BW and SC2 superstars!
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When SC2 was released I completely switched over, and I hardly follow the BW scene now adays.. I sill watch Day[9]'s BW dailies, sometimes I watch TSL2 games, and read up on dat Power Rank, but even though I've moved on, I don't want to see it end, ever.
Even though it's awesome for SC2, it's really sad for BW. X.X
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Holy shit! This is exciting!
Will BW still be played or no?
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EPT
