On October 29 2011 02:22 L_Master wrote: This is Bisu in full swing:
For those discussing the APM vs meaningful APM such a measure was devised for broodwar called EAPM that factored out the spam. Most of the BW players that were considered fast and great multitaskers generally had between 300-400 APM, and about 200-250 EAPM depending on the game.
Needless to say, Bisu is no Vibe, and as you can see from the video Bisu is not doing very much spamming at all, it really is 80-90% meaningful clicks.
Wow thats fucking amazing. I don't think any current SC2 player can multitask that well even with the easier mechanics, less maybe MVP.
This is no rip on the SC2 guys, its just that Bisu was known for being head and shoulders above almost everyone in BW at multitasking, including many strong BW players known for being quick and solid mechanically. I haven't heard any SC2 pros being noted for having truly insane multi-task so far either.
MMA can multitask even better. In sc2 rating I've seen his apm reaching 700(680 to be precise). His last game vs boxer at anaheim was the perfect example. He was dropping at 2 or 3 places while keeping his main bio army split in two dancing with the huge amount of boxers tanks,trying to outposition him, which he did. He was also macroing meanwhile. Such a monster.
Tldr:not starting a xx vs yy war, I'm just a MMA fanboy.
That last game of MLG Anaheim MMA didn't go above 400 APM and I don't even think it was above 350, where the hell do you get the 700/680 figure from?
Maybe he talks about IMMvp. Mvp was often at 560-650 apm against DongRaeGu during fights, with a peak at 750 apm. :D edit : not ingame apm, sc2gears apm aka "real time apm"
On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote: Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9 Being able to manually click buildings to pump units Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines. No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players,
yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap.
hopefully you're wrong.
Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy.
On October 29 2011 05:22 skyzzang wrote: Just take a look at Julyzerg. What happend to him in SC2 ? One of the reason why he's doing poorly is because
1) Skill ceiling for SC2 is very very very low compared to BW 2) Easy interface, Binding, Unit control 3) Zerg's specialty does not shine in SC2 as much as it did in BW, which was speed and flank. aka, one sentry blocking the ramp.
He does poorly because he doesn't play sc2 zerg the way they are meant to be played. 40-50 drones is his max often enough, with no creep spread, and bad unit compositions. He does an aggresive zerg very well but he needs to mix in more drones and creep spread to make his play better... also he needs to use the zergs best units instead of just sc1 units+roach
Yeah but july was peaking 900+ APM in BW.. you might expect that to translate great large army control in sc2
APM works different in sc2 numbers wise but I never said he has poor control. He seems to make few mistakes and controls units well.. he just doesn't have enough units getting there quick enough and he doesn't use infestors or broods
On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote: I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity.
Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way.
If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful.
Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive.
The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban.
Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game.
He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it.
But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly.
On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote: Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9 Being able to manually click buildings to pump units Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines. No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players,
yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap.
hopefully you're wrong.
Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy.
Because they never used any strategy, at all, in BW right? I don't understand this argument. Unit comps existed in BW too, and they mattered.
On October 29 2011 03:56 Alpina wrote: do you think pros like jaedong, flash really going to dominate current pros? Because everyone was talking the same when boxer, july, nada switched but they are pretty much on the same level as everyone else now.
On October 29 2011 03:58 Chill wrote: What about July? Golden mouse holder and he's not smashing SC2! I don't think it's as easy as flick a switch and BW pros now dominate SC2.
Jeadong and Flash are the current best bw pros. Boxer and nada were the best at bw 5+ years ago.
The difference is huge.
Pretty sure Chill knows his BW considering he was the BW strategy moderator for ages ^_^
Still, you can't compared July with Jaedong. I dunno if he's trolling or drunk.
July, Nada, Boxer, etc destroy the argument. If it's true top players automatically are better than SC2 players because their micro/APM/etc is superior, we should be able to witness that in the very best BW players regardless of whether their career slowed down towards the end; is anyone going to argue Nada and July aren't BW legends? I'm tired of the argument. Jaedong and company will most likely be better than July/Nada/etc but there's no guarantee they'll magically dominate SC2. Jaedong will not be better than Nestea or Dimaga or Stephano a month after switching. Or two, three, etc.
That's the entire point though. Nada, July, Boxer; et al. are legends, BUT they were towards the end in their careers. They definitely didn't have the same level of micro, APM, gamesense, etc as their younger counterparts. They were great in their time, but couldn't keep up with the ever rising skill level of the younger blood in the BW scene. The newer BW players were better than those legends ever were. Same way Hicham El Guerrouj is much better than Roger Bannister ever was.
On October 29 2011 05:21 HellionDrop wrote: i want to offer a different perspective to those BW players who think BW is much more exciting to watch. In order for you to judge the level of difficulty of a game, you need to play it. The spectators who have never played this game before would not understand how much stuff you need to do in BW. However, BW being exciting to watch is only your opinion, imo, BW has bad graphic, bad unit pathing, bad game mechanic...etc. the players are amazing , but not the game itself.i hope all BW pros switch to SC2.
1) I generally agree with your point that you have to play the game to appreciate it's level of "difficulty"
2)Where I disagree with you is where you say the game itself isn't what made BW great. I talked about this earlier in the thread, but the "outdated" mechanical UI is part of what made BW great (see here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280168¤tpage=43#843). That DOES NOT mean you need those things to make a great RTS. It just happened to work for BW and create so much of the awesomeness within BW. And yes, it IS the game itself that is great not just the players.
On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote: Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9 Being able to manually click buildings to pump units Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines. No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players,
What about TBLS? Afaik Sun Tzu didn't know how to make marines, but he was a master strategist.
On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote: Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9 Being able to manually click buildings to pump units Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines. No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players,
yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap.
hopefully you're wrong.
Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy.
Because they never used any strategy, at all, in BW right? I don't understand this argument. Unit comps existed in BW too, and they mattered.
Yeah its pretty much a matter of there being tons of strategy, but the baseline mechanics needed to properly execute these strategies was higher. Its similar how in Basketball strategy doesn't really start to matter until you can dribble properly and have solid fundamentals.
On October 29 2011 05:35 thOr6136 wrote: Guys, i dont know but those might be profiles of BW progamers: Midas, Hyvaa, Movie.
the article said they'd been practicing for weeks. so i dunno possible this was one of the later teams to start, but mroe than likely they had thei own accounts and these are fakes based on the rumor of this news.
I don't understand where all the raging is about... I mean look at Pokemon 1/2/3/4/5/6 season. Just like SC 1/2. EACH VERSION has their own mechanic, though it may be similar. THE STRATEGIES will obviously be different due to changed mechanics.
ppl here are acting quite like idiots.. so many ppl bashing sc2 saying its less skill, units on 1 hotkey etc. etc. Well, BW wasn't as 'perfect/fun/balanced' as it is now when it was first released. The game is like 12 years old.. jeez.. Give SC2 some time, it just has been 1 year. The quality of sc2 games keeps getting better, just watch gsl season 1 and now. In a few years sc2 will get a lot more fun and ppl will love it.
And then when Sc3 comes out, ppl are gonne trash talk like now. Circle of Starcraft?
On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote: I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity.
Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way.
If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful.
Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive.
The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban.
Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game.
He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it.
But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly.
Or they like both games but just prefer sc2 now and can live without BW because they have replaced it. That does not mean they are not fans or have fond memories of BW. Ignore them and go lament with eachother if you can't handle someone being optimistic for their game of choice.
On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote: Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9 Being able to manually click buildings to pump units Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines. No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players,
yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap.
hopefully you're wrong.
Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy.
Because they never used any strategy, at all, in BW right? I don't understand this argument. Unit comps existed in BW too, and they mattered.
Look, it is what the focus is on. In SC2 with 1-1-1 push you got all these different unit comp options tank vs hellion, viking vs banshee etc, and possibilities togo for. so the strategy is how you combine them, what build order, tech labs etc. its a game about strategy, and sc2 is wonderful because of that.
On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote: Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9 Being able to manually click buildings to pump units Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines. No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players,
yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap.
hopefully you're wrong.
Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy.
Micro and macro have been solved? What does that mean?
On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote: I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity.
Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way.
If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful.
Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive.
The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban.
Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game.
He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it.
But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly.
Then what are SC2 fans are supposed to say exactly? "glad brood war is dieing" is foul "its sad that brood war is dieing" is foul as well. Btw you can't say don't talk about it at all cause we all know its simply a to big topic considering what the thread is about. Of course if its those that are known as you say its clearly false but what about the others? We are in some serious generalizations here.
On October 29 2011 05:38 MuTa07 wrote: ppl here are acting quite like idiots.. so many ppl bashing sc2 saying its less skill, units on 1 hotkey etc. etc. Well, BW wasn't as 'perfect/fun/balanced' as it is now when it was first released. The game is like 12 years old.. jeez.. Give SC2 some time, it just has been 1 year. The quality of sc2 games keeps getting better, just watch gsl season 1 and now. In a few years sc2 will get a lot more fun and ppl will love it.
And then when Sc3 comes out, ppl are gonne trash talk like now. Circle of Starcraft?
There is a huge difference between balance design and game design that you have to keep in mind. 95% of the game design will not be changed in Hots, and most likely in the expansion that follows. So while some of the arguments are valid, saying to wait for the game to get better, really only applies to balance which is half of some people's concerns.
On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote: Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9 Being able to manually click buildings to pump units Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines. No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players,
yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap.
hopefully you're wrong.
Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy.
Micro and macro have been solved? What does that mean?
Until we get someone who can macro like TOP/Bomber and micro like MKP micros his marines, I don't think we can say we've hit the skill ceiling for SC2. (IMHO.)
On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote: Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9 Being able to manually click buildings to pump units Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines. No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players,
yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap.
hopefully you're wrong.
Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy.
Because they never used any strategy, at all, in BW right? I don't understand this argument. Unit comps existed in BW too, and they mattered.
Look, it is what the focus is on. In SC2 with 1-1-1 push you got all these different unit comp options tank vs hellion, viking vs banshee etc, and possibilities togo for. so the strategy is how you combine them, what build order, tech labs etc. its a game about strategy, and sc2 is wonderful because of that.
did you seriously just use the 1-1-1 as an example of something wonderful about sc2? erm.
EPT
