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i'm not sure how this influx of extraordinary players will impact sc2
it could lead to very boring games, just like mvp vs nestea are
but then it could make blizzard change their game .. maybe
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France12758 Posts
On October 29 2011 05:47 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:45 Poopi wrote:On October 29 2011 05:41 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:40 babylon wrote:On October 29 2011 05:39 Tachion wrote:On October 29 2011 05:32 BroodWarHD wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 Shiori wrote:On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote:
Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9
Being able to manually click buildings to pump units
Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines.
No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players, yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap. hopefully you're wrong. Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy. Micro and macro have been solved? What does that mean? Until we get someone who can macro like TOP/Bomber and micro like MKP micros his marines, I don't think we can say we've hit the skill ceiling for SC2. (IMHO.) Mvp. Macro's better than bomber and micro's with the best :D Mvp's micro is overrated. As well as TOP's macro. But Bomber has really great macro, hard to know who has the best macro without knowing personally the players I guess I actually think TOP's macro is really good, but it's hard to tell at times because he keeps losing units to his poor micro. ... TOP's macro is really the only thing he has going for him, poor kid.
Yeah I think it was him who said that he is bad at TvP because he can't get good concaves etc. :/
His macro is obviously good but Mvp is not worse than his, whereas Bomber may have better macro than Mvp (hard to judge like I said)
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Very cool. 
Everyone knew it was only a matter of time, so no one should be surprised, really.
I say bring it on! I hope the BW players can soon acclimate themselves to the globality of the SC2 scene - would be a shame if some great players were stuck in Korea instead of venturing out and showing their skill to the world live.
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On October 29 2011 05:42 PhoenixDark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:34 L_Master wrote:On October 29 2011 05:20 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 04:57 tyCe wrote:On October 29 2011 04:53 THM wrote:On October 29 2011 03:56 Alpina wrote:
do you think pros like jaedong, flash really going to dominate current pros? Because everyone was talking the same when boxer, july, nada switched but they are pretty much on the same level as everyone else now. On October 29 2011 03:58 Chill wrote:
What about July? Golden mouse holder and he's not smashing SC2! I don't think it's as easy as flick a switch and BW pros now dominate SC2. Jeadong and Flash are the current best bw pros. Boxer and nada were the best at bw 5+ years ago. The difference is huge. Pretty sure Chill knows his BW considering he was the BW strategy moderator for ages ^_^ Still, you can't compared July with Jaedong. I dunno if he's trolling or drunk. July, Nada, Boxer, etc destroy the argument. If it's true top players automatically are better than SC2 players because their micro/APM/etc is superior, we should be able to witness that in the very best BW players regardless of whether their career slowed down towards the end; is anyone going to argue Nada and July aren't BW legends? I'm tired of the argument. Jaedong and company will most likely be better than July/Nada/etc but there's no guarantee they'll magically dominate SC2. Jaedong will not be better than Nestea or Dimaga or Stephano a month after switching. Or two, three, etc. That's the entire point though. Nada, July, Boxer; et al. are legends, BUT they were towards the end in their careers. They definitely didn't have the same level of micro, APM, gamesense, etc as their younger counterparts. They were great in their time, but couldn't keep up with the ever rising skill level of the younger blood in the BW scene. The newer BW players were better than those legends ever were. Same way Hicham El Guerrouj is much better than Roger Bannister ever was. But if SC2 is far easier than BW, the fact that Nada/July/etc weren't at their best wouldn't matter; the apm and micro demands are lower in SC2. So the fact that they have not dominated anything should be pointed to as evidence the skills don't translate as easily as some think. Nada is a solid SC2 player, Boxer is good, while July isn't a top 10 zerg imo. They're all good, they all have twich reflexes, tons of experience, etc. But they aren't doing nearly as well as some predicted.
Since you're such an SC2 junkie, why don't you check your own stats? July was a runner up in the finals. Boxer & Nada have done amazingly in Code S considering how freaking old they are, especially the Emperor.
I really think some TL writer needs to write an amazing full-fledged post to explain this to people. Oh wait, they already have... it looks like some people just don't know their TL lore.
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France12758 Posts
On October 29 2011 05:48 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:45 Poopi wrote:On October 29 2011 05:41 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:40 babylon wrote:On October 29 2011 05:39 Tachion wrote:On October 29 2011 05:32 BroodWarHD wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 Shiori wrote:On October 29 2011 05:27 skyzzang wrote:
Here are some unneccesary skills BW players have that will carry over to SC2.
Being able to bind buildings/units from 1 ~ 9
Being able to manually click buildings to pump units
Being able to drag and click units very fast
All these have been solved and everyone can do it with the comfort of just one hot key.
20 rax can be grouped in one hotkey and you spam aaaaaaaaa for marines.
No need to manually click on buildings which is useless skill that seperates BW players will carry over. No need to drag units now since you can group everything in one hotkey as well.
There is nothing special that BW players will have over currently well established SC2 players, yeah, because clearly someone like Bisu, who has the multitasking ability of a computer, won't be able to use that to his advantage when the game makes it easier for him to do mechanical tasks. if your reasoning is true, then we have the following conclusion: SC2 is a terrible game with a low skill cap. hopefully you're wrong. Uhh.. sc2 has a high skillcap. But its about buildorders, unit composition. Micro and macro have been somewhat solved in sc2, thatis true. But you still need the right unit comp to counter your enemy and the build order to do it efficiently, so you need strategy. Micro and macro have been solved? What does that mean? Until we get someone who can macro like TOP/Bomber and micro like MKP micros his marines, I don't think we can say we've hit the skill ceiling for SC2. (IMHO.) Mvp. Macro's better than bomber and micro's with the best :D Mvp's micro is overrated. As well as TOP's macro. But Bomber has really great macro, hard to know who has the best macro without knowing personally the players I guess if you understand how mvp micros - taking marine tank ghost TvZ as an example - you'd know that his micro is actually untouchable by any other terran in the world. mkp used to be the king of splits but many people have become better than him at his own art, including mvp.
Just watch his games against NesTea or DongRaeGu.
Mvp's micro is not that great.
About MKP's micro, dunno ask people living in korea how good or bad his micro is, they know better.
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On October 29 2011 05:51 Keone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:42 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 05:34 L_Master wrote:On October 29 2011 05:20 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 04:57 tyCe wrote:On October 29 2011 04:53 THM wrote:On October 29 2011 03:56 Alpina wrote:
do you think pros like jaedong, flash really going to dominate current pros? Because everyone was talking the same when boxer, july, nada switched but they are pretty much on the same level as everyone else now. On October 29 2011 03:58 Chill wrote:
What about July? Golden mouse holder and he's not smashing SC2! I don't think it's as easy as flick a switch and BW pros now dominate SC2. Jeadong and Flash are the current best bw pros. Boxer and nada were the best at bw 5+ years ago. The difference is huge. Pretty sure Chill knows his BW considering he was the BW strategy moderator for ages ^_^ Still, you can't compared July with Jaedong. I dunno if he's trolling or drunk. July, Nada, Boxer, etc destroy the argument. If it's true top players automatically are better than SC2 players because their micro/APM/etc is superior, we should be able to witness that in the very best BW players regardless of whether their career slowed down towards the end; is anyone going to argue Nada and July aren't BW legends? I'm tired of the argument. Jaedong and company will most likely be better than July/Nada/etc but there's no guarantee they'll magically dominate SC2. Jaedong will not be better than Nestea or Dimaga or Stephano a month after switching. Or two, three, etc. That's the entire point though. Nada, July, Boxer; et al. are legends, BUT they were towards the end in their careers. They definitely didn't have the same level of micro, APM, gamesense, etc as their younger counterparts. They were great in their time, but couldn't keep up with the ever rising skill level of the younger blood in the BW scene. The newer BW players were better than those legends ever were. Same way Hicham El Guerrouj is much better than Roger Bannister ever was. But if SC2 is far easier than BW, the fact that Nada/July/etc weren't at their best wouldn't matter; the apm and micro demands are lower in SC2. So the fact that they have not dominated anything should be pointed to as evidence the skills don't translate as easily as some think. Nada is a solid SC2 player, Boxer is good, while July isn't a top 10 zerg imo. They're all good, they all have twich reflexes, tons of experience, etc. But they aren't doing nearly as well as some predicted. Since you're such an SC2 junkie, why don't you check your own stats? July was a runner up in the finals. Boxer & Nada have done amazingly in Code S considering how freaking old they are, especially the Emperor. I really think some TL writer needs to write an amazing full-fledged post to explain this to people. Oh wait, they already have... it looks like some people just don't know their TL lore.
I've actually just been waiting for a few current pros to switch over, bash faces, and then read that post again.
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On October 29 2011 05:48 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:40 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2011 05:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:24 Canadium wrote:On October 29 2011 05:17 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote:
I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity. Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way. If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful. Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive. The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban. Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game. He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it. But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly. Then what are SC2 fans are supposed to say exactly? "glad brood war is dieing" is foul "its sad that brood war is dieing" is foul as well. Btw you can't say don't talk about it at all cause we all know its simply a to big topic considering what the thread is about. Of course if its those that are known as you say its clearly false but what about the others? We are in some serious generalizations here. I didn't tell you to say anything. I was just defending someone who got strawmanned for things he didn't mean nor say. If you read my post, all I was saying is that there are a lot of people acting sympathetic saying "Oh, it's sad to see BW dying" and then a whole bunch of stuff about how excited they are and that it makes certain people angry. I didn't say don't say it. I didn't even say that it was foul, so you misinterpreted what I wrote. Also, what are you trying to say. Your second half, seriously, made absolutely no sense. Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:38 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:24 Canadium wrote:On October 29 2011 05:17 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote:
I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity. Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way. If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful. Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive. The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban. Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game. He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it. But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly. Or they like both games but just prefer sc2 now and can live without BW because they have replaced it. That does not mean they are not fans or have fond memories of BW. Ignore them and go lament with eachother if you can't handle someone being optimistic for their game of choice. Why is this turning ad hominem when all I was doing was explaining how you're just blatantly inferring from someone's post things that he didn't even say?
Because he did say everything I implied he said and then you supported his opinion about all the sc2 posters etc. But w/e. Some people can only see one side of things. Gl thread
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Whoa, never thought people would actually use that after I made it.
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I think that the main advantage BW players have is the mechanics and training method of the Starcraft games. SC2 is not the same game, it's similar, but has enough differences for a possibility to make several players rise and fall if they switched. It's going to take time for them to handle that transition properly to utilize their full potential of the mechanics they have.
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On October 29 2011 05:52 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:48 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:40 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2011 05:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:24 Canadium wrote:On October 29 2011 05:17 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote:
I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity. Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way. If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful. Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive. The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban. Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game. He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it. But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly. Then what are SC2 fans are supposed to say exactly? "glad brood war is dieing" is foul "its sad that brood war is dieing" is foul as well. Btw you can't say don't talk about it at all cause we all know its simply a to big topic considering what the thread is about. Of course if its those that are known as you say its clearly false but what about the others? We are in some serious generalizations here. I didn't tell you to say anything. I was just defending someone who got strawmanned for things he didn't mean nor say. If you read my post, all I was saying is that there are a lot of people acting sympathetic saying "Oh, it's sad to see BW dying" and then a whole bunch of stuff about how excited they are and that it makes certain people angry. I didn't say don't say it. I didn't even say that it was foul, so you misinterpreted what I wrote. Also, what are you trying to say. Your second half, seriously, made absolutely no sense. On October 29 2011 05:38 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:24 Canadium wrote:On October 29 2011 05:17 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote:
I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity. Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way. If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful. Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive. The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban. Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game. He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it. But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly. Or they like both games but just prefer sc2 now and can live without BW because they have replaced it. That does not mean they are not fans or have fond memories of BW. Ignore them and go lament with eachother if you can't handle someone being optimistic for their game of choice. Why is this turning ad hominem when all I was doing was explaining how you're just blatantly inferring from someone's post things that he didn't even say? Because he did say everything I implied he said and then you supported his opinion about all the sc2 posters etc. But w/e. Some people can only see one side of things. Gl thread
How am I supporting his opinion about all SC2 posters when I specifically called you out for strawmanning his argument?
If you can find a SINGLE post where I bash the SC2 side of the forum then I'll rescind all my comments. You'll see that I've only made slight jabs at players at and the game, so stop acting all high and mighty when I haven't had a single negative thing to say about SC2 posters.
If anything, you're one sided for not even acknowledging that he has a point. The fact that I took NO stance in his argument and instead just reiterated it so that YOU could understand what he was talking about shows how ignorant you're being.
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I'm so tired about high skill cap this and low skill cap that. The thing is both bw and sc2 share a couple of super high skill caps characteristics:
multitasking; you can never multi task too much in both games but as a human we reach a ceiling and have to prioritize.
micro'ing; you could control a single unit to perfection and an army as well but as humans we would lack in other aspects of the game
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bye bw, im gonna miss you. *kiss bw*
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So is this Proleague going to have both the old teams plus new sc2 teams like slayers and IM, I'd love to see Slayers vs SK T1. :D
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i'm certain players like flash or jaedong will push the game to the limits and will provide a lot of exciting games with a lot of micro, macro, positioning and crazy situations, but blizzard needs to listen to them.
if they say something is wrong, they need to fucking act and not say "but the game has to be friendly to noobs". if they say the marauder is imbalanced or badly design, they need to act, i dont think they would anyway 
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On October 29 2011 05:49 Boonbag wrote:
i'm not sure how this influx of extraordinary players will impact sc2
it could lead to very boring games, just like mvp vs nestea are
Yeah I hate watching the best players play too.
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I'm sad to see my favorite game of all time slowly switch over, but I am also very excited to hopefully one day see Jaedong playing SC2 Zerg. Its a bitter-sweet feeling for me, but I wish everyone the best of luck, and I hope KeSPA makes the right choice in the end of the day (that choice, even I don't quite know what the answer should be...)
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On October 29 2011 05:51 Keone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:42 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 05:34 L_Master wrote:On October 29 2011 05:20 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 04:57 tyCe wrote:On October 29 2011 04:53 THM wrote:On October 29 2011 03:56 Alpina wrote:
do you think pros like jaedong, flash really going to dominate current pros? Because everyone was talking the same when boxer, july, nada switched but they are pretty much on the same level as everyone else now. On October 29 2011 03:58 Chill wrote:
What about July? Golden mouse holder and he's not smashing SC2! I don't think it's as easy as flick a switch and BW pros now dominate SC2. Jeadong and Flash are the current best bw pros. Boxer and nada were the best at bw 5+ years ago. The difference is huge. Pretty sure Chill knows his BW considering he was the BW strategy moderator for ages ^_^ Still, you can't compared July with Jaedong. I dunno if he's trolling or drunk. July, Nada, Boxer, etc destroy the argument. If it's true top players automatically are better than SC2 players because their micro/APM/etc is superior, we should be able to witness that in the very best BW players regardless of whether their career slowed down towards the end; is anyone going to argue Nada and July aren't BW legends? I'm tired of the argument. Jaedong and company will most likely be better than July/Nada/etc but there's no guarantee they'll magically dominate SC2. Jaedong will not be better than Nestea or Dimaga or Stephano a month after switching. Or two, three, etc. That's the entire point though. Nada, July, Boxer; et al. are legends, BUT they were towards the end in their careers. They definitely didn't have the same level of micro, APM, gamesense, etc as their younger counterparts. They were great in their time, but couldn't keep up with the ever rising skill level of the younger blood in the BW scene. The newer BW players were better than those legends ever were. Same way Hicham El Guerrouj is much better than Roger Bannister ever was. But if SC2 is far easier than BW, the fact that Nada/July/etc weren't at their best wouldn't matter; the apm and micro demands are lower in SC2. So the fact that they have not dominated anything should be pointed to as evidence the skills don't translate as easily as some think. Nada is a solid SC2 player, Boxer is good, while July isn't a top 10 zerg imo. They're all good, they all have twich reflexes, tons of experience, etc. But they aren't doing nearly as well as some predicted. Since you're such an SC2 junkie, why don't you check your own stats? July was a runner up in the finals. Boxer & Nada have done amazingly in Code S considering how freaking old they are, especially the Emperor. I really think some TL writer needs to write an amazing full-fledged post to explain this to people. Oh wait, they already have... it looks like some people just don't know their TL lore.
Freaking old? Nada is 26, Boxer is 31. In what world is this "freaking old"? Are you one of those people that thinks their hands slow down or something?
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Ugh. This is going to be weird. The new season needs to start just so I know what will fucking happen.
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i am interested in seeing if the metagame changes because of BW a-teamers switching
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EPT
