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On October 29 2011 03:28 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 03:25 JoeAWESOME wrote:Showmatch inc? Jaedong vs Nestea? Bisu vs MC? Fantasy vs MVP?  Posts like these make me sad inside. Nestea, MC and MVP are simply not on the same level. No point in a show match.
It would be funny to see how the broodwar pros would play against these players after short amount of practice, but other than that, wouldn't be that interesting.
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On October 29 2011 02:36 trifecta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 02:30 Grampz wrote:
Soon, there will be no hope. Players like HuK, Nestea, all will be put to shame by the sheer talent of the brood war gods. May god, have mercy on us all. God is Flash. There will be no mercy.
True but the Kratoss Protoss is god killer!!!!
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As a starcraft 2 fan I am excited about more high level players joining the scene. If these guys are as good at SC2 as people say they will be, then I look forward to seeing some crazy good play.
I do sympathize with BW fans as this may or may not be harmful to their scene. That sucks.
Overall though, as an SC2 fan I'm excited and hopeful.
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On October 29 2011 03:01 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 02:55 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 02:45 Canucklehead wrote:On October 29 2011 02:19 Kira__ wrote:
I'm afraid that these superstars switching might be a dissapointment due to the limitations of sc2. The main reason they are untouchable in brood war is because of their godlike mechanics. People like IdrA who is looked upon as perhaps the player with the strongest mechanics in the foreign scene, doesnt even come close to them. But this doesnt play as big of a role in Sc2 as it did in brood war. Players with down right crap mechanics (Goody eliminating Nestea in TSL comes to mind) can bring down superior opponents because the game is quite frankly so easy.
Obviously these players will be in the absolute top, winning the tournaments, but won't be anywhere near as dominant as they could be in brood war. I like that aspect of sc2 because it rewards more game sense and knowledge, rather than just pure mechanics. I have this argument with my bw elitist friend all the time. I believe that a bulk of bw mechanical skill just comes from the fact that the bw UI is outdated and cumbersome. Therefore you need to become a practice robot to overcome the poor UI. I think that's the wrong way to judge skill. It's like if someone designed the most awful and unintuitive UI possible on purpose and then told people to practice like crazy to overcome these limitations. Sure some people will be able to overcome that handicap better than others, but that's just due to being a practice robot. I don't like judging skill like that. That's why I like sc2 more than bw because it rewards game sense and knowledge first and mechanics second. Sure people with great mechanics will still be rewarded in sc2, but since the UI is easier and more streamlined in sc2, that won't be the main factor of success because more people can attain that. I just don't like the idea of overcoming a crappy UI better than others as a good sign of skill. It just means you practiced more than others at overcoming that handicap. This is my exact though, and I was going to post it, but you already did. Measuring skill as your ability overcome a completely outdated UI and control scheme is stupid. Yes, BW is mechanically harder to play, but the idea that it's a good thing is completely foreign to me. Also, I think all the people predicting total collapse of the current SC2 scene are completely short sighted and don't understand the factors that went in to Korean dominance of BW. The foreign SC2 scene actually has the infrastructure and funding to compete now; it did not in BW. In fact, most of the money in SC2 is in the foreign scene, it's not in Korea. And lets face it, money is what really makes the best players. Money = best equipment, better salaries, more practice time, ability to pool the best talent in closer proximity. Money is also the reason you see the Pro League teams doing this. They see MLG, they see Blizzconn and the 13+K people that were watching GSL finals live. They see where the money is moving, and it's not in to BW. The real question is: How long can KeSPA keep up their demilitarized zone strategy to competition control? The real money in SC2 is found outside of Korea, which means the top players are going to need to be free to compete both in and outside of the country. KeSPA is gonna be late to the party and not just going to be able to throw their weight around to get what they want. The foreign BW scene was just as big and just as overhyped when it first developed in the late 90s and early 2000s. There were lots of tournaments and lots of fulltime pro players. However, by the mid 2000s, as expected, most foreigner BW players moved on to newer, shinier, games. The Koreans actually recognized it for the masterpiece that it is. Unfortunately for the foreigner scene, SC2 has already suffered from massive drops in player base since release as newer shinies are released. I think that not long after Legacy of the Void is released, most foreigners will have moved on to new shinies, thus destroying the foreign SC2 viewerbase which will lead to a collapse of the pro scene. However, when Koreans like a game, they stick to it.
What do you have to say about barcraft?
Or the constant expansion of MLG viewership?
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On October 29 2011 03:28 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 03:25 JoeAWESOME wrote:Showmatch inc? Jaedong vs Nestea? Bisu vs MC? Fantasy vs MVP? Posts like these make me sad inside. Nestea, MC and MVP are simply not on the same level. No point in a show match.
If a showmatch occurred anytime soon, Jaedong, Bisu, and Fantasy would get trashed.
Sorry, but overcoming a year's deficit of playing SC2 won't happen in a few weeks. I don't care if you're Flash. It's not happening, especially given how the game's getting patched so constantly.
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Cool news i guess. Having SC2 in proleague gives me a reason to watch days that bisu isn't playing. As long as all the BW pros continue to focus mainly on BW im totally cool with it.
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On October 29 2011 03:03 PhoenixDark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 02:45 Canucklehead wrote:
I like that aspect of sc2 because it rewards more game sense and knowledge, rather than just pure mechanics. I have this argument with my bw elitist friend all the time. I believe that a bulk of bw mechanical skill just comes from the fact that the bw UI is outdated and cumbersome. Therefore you need to become a practice robot to overcome the poor UI.
I think that's the wrong way to judge skill. It's like if someone designed the most awful and unintuitive UI possible on purpose and then told people to practice like crazy to overcome these limitations. Sure some people will be able to overcome that handicap better than others, but that's just due to being a practice robot.
I don't like judging skill like that. That's why I like sc2 more than bw because it rewards game sense and knowledge first and mechanics second. Sure people with great mechanics will still be rewarded in sc2, but since the UI is easier and more streamlined in sc2, that won't be the main factor of success because more people can attain that. I just don't like the idea of overcoming a crappy UI better than others as a good sign of skill. It just means you practiced more than others at overcoming that handicap. Thank youBW is obviously a "harder" game but it's also been around for far longer, people have mastered it and there are no balance issues. I like the idea of streamlining some of the mechanics so players can focus on economy, micro, etc. Does anyone honestly believe SC2 will be "bad" 2-3 years from now, when people start mastering more and more of the game? SC2 Terran already looks close to its final potential to me; part of that revolves around balance issues, but regardless Terran's are microing better than the other races. There's going to come a day when some zerg boss doesn't miss larvae injects, spreads creep endlessly, evolves drop play defense (putting drones in Overlords?), and makes rapid tech switch re-max armies that break everyone's minds. We're not there yet. Haha I actually thought of putting drones in overlords to defend hellion drops once, but right now my mechanics are not the best so I can't spare the apm to do it correctly.
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On topic: If they start playing SC2, great. If they don't, great too. BW S-class pros won't push the skill cap to it's maximum too quickly I think, but they accelerate the process and I'm enjoying having guys like MVP around, who have the potential to represent to SC2 what NaDa did to BW(Only talking about gameplay here, no one can top NaDa in terms of backstory and body-stiffness I guess).
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Calgary25989 Posts
On October 29 2011 03:01 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 02:55 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 02:45 Canucklehead wrote:On October 29 2011 02:19 Kira__ wrote:
I'm afraid that these superstars switching might be a dissapointment due to the limitations of sc2. The main reason they are untouchable in brood war is because of their godlike mechanics. People like IdrA who is looked upon as perhaps the player with the strongest mechanics in the foreign scene, doesnt even come close to them. But this doesnt play as big of a role in Sc2 as it did in brood war. Players with down right crap mechanics (Goody eliminating Nestea in TSL comes to mind) can bring down superior opponents because the game is quite frankly so easy.
Obviously these players will be in the absolute top, winning the tournaments, but won't be anywhere near as dominant as they could be in brood war. I like that aspect of sc2 because it rewards more game sense and knowledge, rather than just pure mechanics. I have this argument with my bw elitist friend all the time. I believe that a bulk of bw mechanical skill just comes from the fact that the bw UI is outdated and cumbersome. Therefore you need to become a practice robot to overcome the poor UI. I think that's the wrong way to judge skill. It's like if someone designed the most awful and unintuitive UI possible on purpose and then told people to practice like crazy to overcome these limitations. Sure some people will be able to overcome that handicap better than others, but that's just due to being a practice robot. I don't like judging skill like that. That's why I like sc2 more than bw because it rewards game sense and knowledge first and mechanics second. Sure people with great mechanics will still be rewarded in sc2, but since the UI is easier and more streamlined in sc2, that won't be the main factor of success because more people can attain that. I just don't like the idea of overcoming a crappy UI better than others as a good sign of skill. It just means you practiced more than others at overcoming that handicap. This is my exact though, and I was going to post it, but you already did. Measuring skill as your ability overcome a completely outdated UI and control scheme is stupid. Yes, BW is mechanically harder to play, but the idea that it's a good thing is completely foreign to me. Also, I think all the people predicting total collapse of the current SC2 scene are completely short sighted and don't understand the factors that went in to Korean dominance of BW. The foreign SC2 scene actually has the infrastructure and funding to compete now; it did not in BW. In fact, most of the money in SC2 is in the foreign scene, it's not in Korea. And lets face it, money is what really makes the best players. Money = best equipment, better salaries, more practice time, ability to pool the best talent in closer proximity. Money is also the reason you see the Pro League teams doing this. They see MLG, they see Blizzconn and the 13+K people that were watching GSL finals live. They see where the money is moving, and it's not in to BW. The real question is: How long can KeSPA keep up their demilitarized zone strategy to competition control? The real money in SC2 is found outside of Korea, which means the top players are going to need to be free to compete both in and outside of the country. KeSPA is gonna be late to the party and not just going to be able to throw their weight around to get what they want. The foreign BW scene was just as big and just as overhyped when it first developed in the late 90s and early 2000s. There were lots of tournaments and lots of fulltime pro players. However, by the mid 2000s, as expected, most foreigner BW players moved on to newer, shinier, games. The Koreans actually recognized it for the masterpiece that it is. Unfortunately for the foreigner scene, SC2 has already suffered from massive drops in player base since release as newer shinies are released. I think that not long after Legacy of the Void is released, most foreigners will have moved on to new shinies, thus destroying the foreign SC2 viewerbase which will lead to a collapse of the pro scene. However, when Koreans like a game, they stick to it.
This is just a lie. Maybe the feeling is similar, but the prize money in SC2 is a full order of magnitude higher and the viewership two orders of magnitude larger.
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On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. User was temp banned for this post.
Im scrolling through the topic and the banned comments clearly show a bias in the moderators, whoevers issueing the bans respond to this post and give your reasons why, TL is known to be super moderated but this is rediculous, people are just voicing their legitimate opinions. Love for BW is passion, thats good but dont let that get in your way of thinking.
My personal take on all of this is very similar to Blizzards, Steve Jobs put it famously in his speech, the old must die to make way for the new, we have to embrace death. The BW scene is a hinderence to the optimal growth of SCII and I believe that the newer game should exist. SCII has a long life ahead of it because it is a new game, and one day its time will come also, but thats in the future, we don't have to worry about that, brood war has had its time.
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Canada5565 Posts
My point is that there simply shouldn't be a show match. Nestea MC and MVP are Nestea MC and MVP. Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy are Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy.
On October 29 2011 03:31 ChuCky.Ca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 02:36 trifecta wrote:On October 29 2011 02:30 Grampz wrote:
Soon, there will be no hope. Players like HuK, Nestea, all will be put to shame by the sheer talent of the brood war gods. May god, have mercy on us all. God is Flash. There will be no mercy. True but the Kratoss Protoss is god killer!!!!
....losing faith in humanity...
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I wasn't around for the BW scene, but I have watched some of the famous matches and I completely understand why BW fans are loathe to see it die out. Quick question: If the BW top tier players move to SC2, would they stay with their original races? From what little I understand of BW, the races play completely different than their SC2 counterparts.
I for one would love to see Bisu play SC2 Protoss like BW. His style is so sick.
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On October 29 2011 03:28 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 03:25 JoeAWESOME wrote:Showmatch inc? Jaedong vs Nestea? Bisu vs MC? Fantasy vs MVP? Posts like these make me sad inside. Nestea, MC and MVP are simply not on the same level. No point in a show match.
It is a little sad but I want to see what these guys can do to the top SC2 players in their own game after a bit of practice. It may be a disrespectful idea that the BW demons should play the SC2 pioneers but it would be damn good entertainment.
Personally as a relative newcomer to the scene who doesn't particularly understand and appreciate what I am seeing when I try to watch BW I want to see what the BEST rts player looks like when playing SC2. I want to see them show what they can do in a media that I can understand.
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United States22154 Posts
On October 29 2011 03:35 DivinitySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. User was temp banned for this post. Im scrolling through the topic and the banned comments clearly show a bias in the moderators, whoevers issueing the bans respond to this post and give your reasons why, TL is known to be super moderated but this is rediculous, people are just voicing their legitimate opinions. Love for BW is passion, thats good but dont let that get in your way of thinking. My personal take on all of this is very similar to Blizzards, Steve Jobs put it famously in his speech, the old must die to make way for the new, we have to embrace death. The BW scene is a hinderence to the optimal growth of SCII and I believe that the newer game should exist. SCII has a long life ahead of it because it is a new game, and one day its time will come also, but thats in the future, we don't have to worry about that, brood war has had its time.
If you have issues with the moderation PM the mod who banned the person in question (in thus case chill) and talk it out with them or take it to website feedback, this is not the place
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after all the bw elitism from some of you guys i cannot wait to see those players finally competing
i personally am not seeing those bw guys doing extraordinary well in sc2 any time soon, especially considering a lot of bw legends aren't exactly dominating in sc2 right now
anyways will be super exiting to see the first aired sc2 matches from some of the big names
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On October 29 2011 03:36 Xxio wrote:My point is that there simply shouldn't be a show match. Nestea MC and MVP are Nestea MC and MVP. Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy are Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy. Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 03:31 ChuCky.Ca wrote:On October 29 2011 02:36 trifecta wrote:On October 29 2011 02:30 Grampz wrote:
Soon, there will be no hope. Players like HuK, Nestea, all will be put to shame by the sheer talent of the brood war gods. May god, have mercy on us all. God is Flash. There will be no mercy. True but the Kratoss Protoss is god killer!!!! ....losing faith in humanity...
our point is that it would be interesting with the time handicap, to see just how good jd, bisu, fantasy/flash are at the game right out the gates
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On October 29 2011 03:36 Xxio wrote:
My point is that there simply shouldn't be a show match. Nestea MC and MVP are Nestea MC and MVP. Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy are Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy.
In that case, I completely agree. It'd be near pointless and just foster more and more hostility between the two communities. Can you imagine how smug the SC2 fans would be if NesTea/MC/MVP won and how defensive the BW fans would be? Or how elitist the BW fans would be if their players won?
Would be a clusterfuck.
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Oh my god, will OSL continue with SC2 ? Seriously Bisu needs his OSL gold so that tourney must continue so that I can see him win OSL !!!
Anyways I'm happy for the SC2 scene and hope that people from both BW and SC2 scenes can now live in harmony from now on.
In the other hand, I'm sad since I am the manager of a BW clan and many members cannot afford SC2 or/and the equipments to play it, at this rate our team (and the other 6 teams of our community) must disband and our community will fade into history. SAD.
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Never thought I'd be glad OZ disbanded.. No sc2 team practice for Lee Jaedong
TBH though I wish there could just be two universes. One for sc2, one for bw. I wouldn't mind seeing TaekBangLeeSsang poop all over current sc2 pros, but if it comes down to watching them play bw or sc2, I would pick bw everytime.
Since that isn't possible ( ) I hope they all just stay in BW.. Sigh.
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as someone that didn't follow BW much at all i can't wait to see what the fuss is about if they do make the switch
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Well... this day came too soon, might aswell star hoarding all the old VODs of BW since there soon won't be any broodwar left at all :/
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EPT
