On October 29 2011 03:32 croupier wrote: As a starcraft 2 fan I am excited about more high level players joining the scene. If these guys are as good at SC2 as people say they will be, then I look forward to seeing some crazy good play.
I do sympathize with BW fans as this may or may not be harmful to their scene. That sucks.
Overall though, as an SC2 fan I'm excited and hopeful.
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
User was temp banned for this post.
Im scrolling through the topic and the banned comments clearly show a bias in the moderators, whoevers issueing the bans respond to this post and give your reasons why, TL is known to be super moderated but this is rediculous, people are just voicing their legitimate opinions. Love for BW is passion, thats good but dont let that get in your way of thinking.
My personal take on all of this is very similar to Blizzards, Steve Jobs put it famously in his speech, the old must die to make way for the new, we have to embrace death. The BW scene is a hinderence to the optimal growth of SCII and I believe that the newer game should exist. SCII has a long life ahead of it because it is a new game, and one day its time will come also, but thats in the future, we don't have to worry about that, brood war has had its time.
If you have complaints about moderation, take it to the website feedback forum. This is not the place for it.
On October 29 2011 03:36 Xxio wrote: My point is that there simply shouldn't be a show match. Nestea MC and MVP are Nestea MC and MVP. Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy are Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy.
On October 29 2011 02:30 Grampz wrote: Soon, there will be no hope. Players like HuK, Nestea, all will be put to shame by the sheer talent of the brood war gods. May god, have mercy on us all.
God is Flash. There will be no mercy.
True but the Kratoss Protoss is god killer!!!!
....losing faith in humanity...
Do you really think someone like MVP will never come close to their lvl if they switch to sc2 ?
It doesn't even matter how they would do. They have nothing to prove to anyone. Think of it this way: the show match already happened and Nestea MC and MVP were stomped.
On October 29 2011 03:25 JoeAWESOME wrote: Showmatch inc?
Jaedong vs Nestea? Bisu vs MC? Fantasy vs MVP?
Posts like these make me sad inside. Nestea, MC and MVP are simply not on the same level. No point in a show match.
Give the BW players a month or two and it might be a show match worth watching, it might take them a while but if they switched over full time they might eventually catch up.
On October 29 2011 03:36 Xxio wrote: My Point iS that there simply shouldn't be a show match. NesTea MC and MVP are NesTea MC and MVP. Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy are Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy.
On October 29 2011 03:31 ChuCky.Ca wrote:
On October 29 2011 02:36 trifecta wrote:
On October 29 2011 02:30 Grampz wrote: Soon, there will be no hope. Players like HuK, NesTea, all will be put to shame by the sheer talent of the brood war gods. May god, have mercy on us all.
God iS Flash. There will be no mercy.
True but the Kratoss Protoss iS god KiLLeR!!!!
....losing Faith in humanity...
our Point iS that it would be interesting with the time handicap, to see just how good jd, Bisu, Fantasy/Flash are at the game right out the gates
they will play terran and zerg so they will have no gates + Show Spoiler +
I'm curious to hear other top foreign sc2 pro's thoughts on this matter. Do they feel threatened? If all the sc1 pros switched fulltime, you damn well know all their sponsors will be flying them out to participate in every nasl,IPL, dreamhack mlg there is.
On October 29 2011 03:36 Xxio wrote: My point is that there simply shouldn't be a show match. Nestea MC and MVP are Nestea MC and MVP. Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy are Jaedong Bisu and Fantasy.
On October 29 2011 03:31 ChuCky.Ca wrote:
On October 29 2011 02:36 trifecta wrote:
On October 29 2011 02:30 Grampz wrote: Soon, there will be no hope. Players like HuK, Nestea, all will be put to shame by the sheer talent of the brood war gods. May god, have mercy on us all.
God is Flash. There will be no mercy.
True but the Kratoss Protoss is god killer!!!!
....losing faith in humanity...
Do you really think someone like MVP will never come close to their lvl if they switch to sc2 ?
On October 29 2011 03:42 Xxio wrote: It doesn't even matter how they would do. They have nothing to prove to anyone. Think of it this way: the show match already happened and Nestea MC and MVP were stomped.
The outcome isn't whats important, its about the show.
On October 29 2011 03:25 JoeAWESOME wrote: Showmatch inc?
Jaedong vs Nestea? Bisu vs MC? Fantasy vs MVP?
Posts like these make me sad inside. Nestea, MC and MVP are simply not on the same level. No point in a show match.
Give the BW players a month or two and it might be a show match worth watching, it might take them a while but if they switched over full time they might eventually catch up.
im starting to get his point of view (i think) he feels that there would be no point in a showmatch for this reason, that "friendly rivalry" between bw fans and sc2 fans here would just crash and burn as one side or the other won, wouldnt even matter who but the point is it would be filled with comments that do not belong on these forums mostly regarding bw elitism or sc2 elitism (depending on which side wins) rather than just appreciating the game for what it is
Nyovne, did you really just give me a warning because I quoted someone who said everything I felt and wanted to say and expressed it perfectly for me? are you some butthurt BW fanatic mad that his game is dying?
As the Divinity put it his with Steve Jobs quote: the old must die to make way for the new, we have to embrace death.
On October 29 2011 02:22 L_Master wrote: This is Bisu in full swing:
For those discussing the APM vs meaningful APM such a measure was devised for broodwar called EAPM that factored out the spam. Most of the BW players that were considered fast and great multitaskers generally had between 300-400 APM, and about 200-250 EAPM depending on the game.
Needless to say, Bisu is no Vibe, and as you can see from the video Bisu is not doing very much spamming at all, it really is 80-90% meaningful clicks.
Wow thats fucking amazing. I don't think any current SC2 player can multitask that well even with the easier mechanics, less maybe MVP.
On October 29 2011 02:38 Kazeyonoma wrote: it confuses me that people are so obsessed with the notion of "dying" "killing" etc of bw. they can co exists, a team can support both a scbw and a sc2 team possibly if the sponsors are there. I don't get why there's so much hate between the two communities right now. I love both and want both to do well side by side.
This is the hipster attitude that is so common around here and that I don't agree with. Yes, they can co-exist but they're effectively detrimental to each others growth. Just look at this last year, BW teams have been struggling and folding and SC2 teams are literally broke. Much of SC2's success in the west has to do with two RTS communities coming together, pooling their resources and fully embracing one big scene. If the RTS scene would have split in three we would never have seen the awesomeness we have at MLG/DH/Blizzcon etc. Never.
Same is true even for Korea. Contrary to popular beliefs, there isn't an infinite pool of e-sport fans to take from. And as it stands right now, neither SC2 or BW got a bright future unless one makes way for the other, and SC2 is for several reasons the one with biggest potential to grow.
It's not really about "dying" or "killing". I wan't BW take a pause, give e-sport a chance to reach to a level never seen before, see what e-sport may become if you combine the Korean progaming scene with the international hype and interest that surrounds SC2. This could mean great great things. This wouldn't be possible without the support from the top players such as the likes of JD and Flash, SC2 will never gain legitimacy in Korea without those names. I wan't them to give it a chance and if BW is this timeless game people say, there is no reason why Kespa can't go back to BW in a couple of years if SC2 would prove to be a failure. Fortunately I believe even Kespa is curious to what progaming with insane amount of liquid foreign fans can bring, they have never had this before.
So yeah they can co-exist, as pale shadows of what could have been.
edit: and yeah, I fully understand why this would blow for BW fans.
There's a fine point in the debate on the BW UI vs the SC2 UI I'd like to chip in on.
A lot of people are saying BW UI is outdated and harder to use; that that the SC2 UI is a step forward in all directions. While I agree with some changes in the BW, the "upgrade" in SC2 has resulted in some changes to the game that make it for the worse. One example was touched on by by Kennigit in his interview with Dustin Bowder: "A lot of people complain about 200/200 balls banging into each other in SC2". This is something that never happened in SC1, and I think most people can agree this made for more epic, map wide battles.
This effect is caused by elements in BW that people would call outdated - the 12 unit control group limit, as well as the relatively poor unit pathing. You could ball up all of your units, but when you a-move them, they all spread out due to the minute difference in time between each 12 unit group moving out, as well as each unit scrabbling to run past each other. Compare this to SC2, when your units ball up all the time, when you tell them to a-move them. I would say this tendency to spread out yields battles that spread across much larger space, crucially causing engagements to drag out over a much longer period of space. In addition to looking more epic, this also gives players more opportunity to show off their micro and/or general skill in the game. The "poor and outdated" unit pathing and limited control groups in BW actually end up leading the players being more able to demonstrate their skills, as well as more entertaining play in general.
Honestly, I never thought of this until I heard Kennigit mention this in the interview, which leads me to believe there are more detractions to the game out there that I haven't thought of.
With that said, I agree with most of the changes, ie automining, MBS. Having to tell your workers to mine every time one is produced is a bit of a waste of APM, imo, that serves no strategical use other than to soak up APM.
EPT
