EPTBW Teams playing Starcraft 2 - Page 120
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On October 31 2011 09:38 nokz88 wrote: Has this thread produced any sort of productive and level-headed discussion yet? Or is it the same ol' "my game is better than your game" stuff it was 50 pages ago? As someone who's silently read the thread since the start, it's pretty much that. It's funny because despite the original topic (BW teams playing SC2 and incorporating it some way or another) people still made it into a superiority argument. Players are better than the other? Well shit now they're both playing the same game. Sponsors are better than the others? Guess what?! They're now dipping into both games. TV channels airing one is better than the other? Oh that's changing too. Pretty much any benefit outside of game design is passing from one to the other & somehow people still have to argue. :\ | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3334 Posts
 I like BW as a game much more than I do SC2... But if there is no BW, will I follow SC2??? sad indeed... This is just a personal opinion so y'all don't need to get all mad about this... I understand after playing SC2 why people like it... I respect that.... I just never clicked with it | ||
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
The thought of current bw pros/teams playing sc2 is terrifying. I can't even imagine. The level of skill in tournaments will be absurd. | ||
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nufcrulz
Singapore934 Posts
And bw fans seriously, you are vets in this forum, and yet you decide to get yourselves baited into this petty bashing.. Also if you're soo unhappy about it, then don't open this thread, it's in the sc2 forum section anyway. You keep on telling them to keep their shit away from the bw forum, so why don't you guys reciprocate by doing the same thing here | ||
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vervejl
United States55 Posts
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ultramafia
221 Posts
On October 31 2011 10:10 nufcrulz wrote: This thread is really going down the gutter, bw fans bashing sc2, sc2 fans bashing bw, why do you guys find it so hard to keep civil... And bw fans seriously, you are vets in this forum, and yet you decide to get yourselves baited into this petty bashing.. Also if you're soo unhappy about it, then don't open this thread, it's in the sc2 forum section anyway. You keep on telling them to keep their shit away from the bw forum, so why don't you guys reciprocate by doing the same thing here hey buddy you keep that logic out of this thread! | ||
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rightstuff
United States160 Posts
I first got into esports as a spectator with BW and English commentary over at gomtv. I used to play BW, mostly custom games, and switched immediately to SC2 when the beta hit. Having experienced both, and having watched both, I can say with confidence that SC2 has a great deal of growing to do. However, it deserves a chance to get started. It is still quite new relative to the time that BW has been a spectator sport. When it first started, Starcraft vanilla pro games were not nearly as impressive as what they ended up as in the current BW patch. I don't think that I'm out of line in suggesting that TRUE esports fans would be willing to watch SC2 and allow BW to retire if it were to become a spectator sport worthy of its heritage. In its current state of balance, metagame, skill level, and map design it does not equal BW in terms of pure entertainment in my opinion. However, the surest way to improve that situation is to educate new fans (and hard headed vets) in the potential that could be realized if SC2 develops into something as amazing as BW. There are fans out there with the desire and drive to carry this new game forward, but everyone should know what sort of standard we should hold to Blizzard and the Starcraft community. Please, please, PLEASE think positively and do not fall into the internet trap of blind criticism over helping to realize potential growth. If we can't agree to promote the advancement of esports over stagnation and instead choose to continue down this path, we need to be honest with ourselves and stop using the word FAN. If you have never experienced BW as a spectator or player, or even if you just want to be reminded of where Starcraft progaming began, please take the time to look at some of the VODs in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280281 and take it as an example of the attitude we should be adopting. Enlightenment for all! | ||
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Mylkyjo
Australia110 Posts
The Western scene seems to be closing the gap, but will this influx of Korean talent just blow the Westerners out of the water? It's so exciting! | ||
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Maekchu
140 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:39 Mylkyjo wrote: The Western scene seems to be closing the gap, but will this influx of Korean talent just blow the Westerners out of the water? It's so exciting! With old BW veterans entering the scene I must say the later scenario is much more realistic. At least that's my bet. :D | ||
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catabowl
United States815 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:31 rightstuff wrote: I've decided that many of the SC2 fans have never experienced BW, and that their distaste for the game is derived from their ignorance of its history. This is not a post intended to denigrate SC2 so much as a plea for BW fans to introduce esports noobs to the roots of pro rts gaming instead of bad mouthing a new game. I first got into esports as a spectator with BW and English commentary over at gomtv. I used to play BW, mostly custom games, and switched immediately to SC2 when the beta hit. Having experienced both, and having watched both, I can say with confidence that SC2 has a great deal of growing to do. However, it deserves a chance to get started. It is still quite new relative to the time that BW has been a spectator sport. When it first started, Starcraft vanilla pro games were not nearly as impressive as what they ended up as in the current BW patch. I don't think that I'm out of line in suggesting that TRUE esports fans would be willing to watch SC2 and allow BW to retire if it were to become a spectator sport worthy of its heritage. In its current state of balance, metagame, skill level, and map design it does not equal BW in terms of pure entertainment in my opinion. However, the surest way to improve that situation is to educate new fans (and hard headed vets) in the potential that could be realized if SC2 develops into something as amazing as BW. There are fans out there with the desire and drive to carry this new game forward, but everyone should know what sort of standard we should hold to Blizzard and the Starcraft community. Please, please, PLEASE think positively and do not fall into the internet trap of blind criticism over helping to realize potential growth. If we can't agree to promote the advancement of esports over stagnation and instead choose to continue down this path, we need to be honest with ourselves and stop using the word FAN. If you have never experienced BW as a spectator or player, or even if you just want to be reminded of where Starcraft progaming began, please take the time to look at some of the VODs in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280281 and take it as an example of the attitude we should be adopting. Enlightenment for all! Actually, this post makes BW fans look worse in the eyes of SC2 fans. Just because BW fans are "vets" does not mean they know everything that is best for E-Sports and you are also suggesting that for SC2 "viewers" to become "Fans" they HAVE to watch BW. As someone who has watched BW since 07 and enjoy watching both games, I don't think it's my place to tell people they have to watch BW to "promote" E-Sports or to kill off BW for SC2. In your scenario, any new NFL fans have to watch the NFL before the Super Bowl Era to fully progress. The old guard is getting replaced with the new guard. That's all BW -> SC2 is. You can either embrace it or fight it. Some BW fans fight it and others Embrace it. Sadly, those are the only two choices it seems. I know there are a lot that want both games to succeed but realistically that is not happening and ultimately BW will fall into a niche market. And in 5 years when Blizzard gets bored, they will make SC3 and then SC2 will die and the cycle will continue until Blizzard decides to stop making SC games. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Seriously, enjoy what you like and don´t shit on what other people like(and that goes for both sides). BW teams deciding to give SC2 a chance? Well, thats their decision, insulting the game won´t make them change their mind, DEAL WITH IT. If BW is dying then spend its last moments cherishing it instead of vomiting shit all over a game that other people enjoy. Does everything has to boild down to BS binary choices of love or hate? | ||
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Thebbeuttiffulland
Brazil288 Posts
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Rareware
Canada340 Posts
On October 31 2011 12:51 windsupernova wrote: This thread is goddamn awuful. Seriously, enjoy what you like and don´t shit on what other people like(and that goes for both sides). BW teams deciding to give SC2 a chance? Well, thats their decision, insulting the game won´t make them change their mind, DEAL WITH IT. If BW is dying then spend its last moments cherishing it instead of vomiting shit all over a game that other people enjoy. Does everything has to boild down to BS binary choices of love or hate? Look at what Chill said in his post here. While you are right complaining about SC2 does nothing, the fact of the matter is that BW fans are naturally going to be upset about this news. How do you expect people who have been following BW esports for years to take this? Just let people vent their frustrations and move on. | ||
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rightstuff
United States160 Posts
On October 31 2011 12:18 catabowl wrote: Actually, this post makes BW fans look worse in the eyes of SC2 fans. Just because BW fans are "vets" does not mean they know everything that is best for E-Sports and you are also suggesting that for SC2 "viewers" to become "Fans" they HAVE to watch BW. As someone who has watched BW since 07 and enjoy watching both games, I don't think it's my place to tell people they have to watch BW to "promote" E-Sports or to kill off BW for SC2. In your scenario, any new NFL fans have to watch the NFL before the Super Bowl Era to fully progress. The old guard is getting replaced with the new guard. That's all BW -> SC2 is. You can either embrace it or fight it. Some BW fans fight it and others Embrace it. Sadly, those are the only two choices it seems. I know there are a lot that want both games to succeed but realistically that is not happening and ultimately BW will fall into a niche market. And in 5 years when Blizzard gets bored, they will make SC3 and then SC2 will die and the cycle will continue until Blizzard decides to stop making SC games. I see where you are getting that from my post, but it is not really what I intended. The fact of the matter is that BW is a great spectator esport. This is a result of YEARS of development and we can learn a lot about what makes esports great by reviewing what makes BW great. In no way am I saying that SC2 is not a valid and worthwhile pursuit for entertainment as a player and as a spectator. What I am saying is that Starcraft vanilla at release and in the years preceding BW and even BW's early patches did not contain what we have today. The skillset of the pros that makes BW so fun to watch did not develop in a year or two, it took a lot longer! The first maps Starcraft players used were awful compared to the ones used today. I am saying that it is ignorant to dismiss SC2 before it has a chance to get started. For SC2 fans that are downplaying the significance of BW, I am saying go watch the games! See what people are so passionate about before you tell fans that BW is a thing of the past. It is still an engaging sport to follow and a fun game to watch. It will remain an engaging thing to view and remember for years to come even as it slowly fades from the mainstream. It is arrogant for an SC2 fan to ignore the BW legacy and pretend that SC2 is an immediate and successful replacement. There is no reason whatsoever that the two games cannot coexist with fans who support one or both games and also support each other. I would not, as an American football fan, disrespect fans of world football, despite the fact that I don't personally enjoy it as much. I still try and watch the World Cup and cheer with my friends who understand the game far better than I do. The bottom line is that we are all esport fans and should respect each other and the games we choose to follow whether you subscribe to GSL or OSL. | ||
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SwizzY
United States1549 Posts
EG/Mouz/Dignitas/Liquid uber team? x) | ||
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Doomwish
438 Posts
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
Viewership? The finals to large BW events gather tens of thousands, or even six figures, of LIVE viewers. That's about as much as the ABSOLUTE largest SC2 events in terms of STREAM viewers. As for total viewers? The finals to large BW events (proleague, OSL) gather MILLIONS of television viewers. No single streamed SC2 event has ever broken 100k simultaneous viewers (MLG doesn't count because it has games other than SC2 and it splits crap into multiple streams) Salaries? Flash made 500k USD in 2010. Enough said. Top A-teamers and S class monsters all make around 6 figures. Oh and . . . . there's also prize money and endorsement deals. Sponsorships? Speaking of endorsement deals, BW teams are directly sponsored by multinational corporations with billions of dollars of assets. These sponsors spend millions on each of the BW teams each year. BW progamers have the opportunity to sign endorsement deals and appear in commercials broadcast throughout all of Korea. Player base? Well here's the surprising one, but believe it or not, more people play BW than SC2 regularly. 359,809 people in the entire world have played any sort of 1v1 SC2 ladder game in the past two weeks, according to SC2ranks. That's paltry. I'm not quite sure of how many people still play BW regularly, but it's high enough to make it one of the most popular games in PC bangs in Korea according to nationwide PC bang statistics. Oh and . . . . millions of people in China play BW . . . yeah. Also, BW has fan girls. SC2 . . . not so much. Notice how the gom studio is more often than not a sausage fest. neener neener | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On October 31 2011 13:33 chenchen wrote: Ok let me set something straight here. Anyone who even attempts to argue that the SC2 scene is bigger than the BW scene in terms of anything involving numbers, be it viewership, sponsorship, salaries, player base (yes, even player base), is GREATLY mistaken. The amount of disrespect for the scale of BW as an esport is utterly insulting. Viewership? The finals to large BW events gather tens of thousands, or even six figures, of LIVE viewers. That's about as much as the ABSOLUTE largest SC2 events in terms of STREAM viewers. As for total viewers? The finals to large BW events (proleague, OSL) gather MILLIONS of television viewers. No single streamed SC2 event has ever broken 100k simultaneous viewers (MLG doesn't count because it has games other than SC2 and it splits crap into multiple streams) Salaries? Flash made 500k USD in 2010. Enough said. Top A-teamers and S class monsters all make around 6 figures. Oh and . . . . there's also prize money and endorsement deals. Sponsorships? Speaking of endorsement deals, BW teams are directly sponsored by multinational corporations with billions of dollars of assets. These sponsors spend millions on each of the BW teams each year. BW progamers have the opportunity to sign endorsement deals and appear in commercials broadcast throughout all of Korea. Player base? Well here's the surprising one, but believe it or not, more people play BW than SC2 regularly. 359,809 people in the entire world have played any sort of 1v1 SC2 ladder game in the past two weeks, according to SC2ranks. That's paltry. I'm not quite sure of how many people still play BW regularly, but it's high enough to make it one of the most popular games in PC bangs in Korea according to nationwide PC bang statistics. Oh and . . . . millions of people in China play BW . . . yeah. Also, BW has fan girls. SC2 . . . not so much. Notice how the gom studio is more often than not a sausage fest. neener neener flash seriously made $500k last year? any source for this? | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On October 31 2011 13:33 chenchen wrote: Ok let me set something straight here. Anyone who even attempts to argue that the SC2 scene is bigger than the BW scene in terms of anything involving numbers, be it viewership, sponsorship, salaries, player base (yes, even player base), is GREATLY mistaken. The amount of disrespect for the scale of BW as an esport is utterly insulting. Viewership? The finals to large BW events gather tens of thousands, or even six figures, of LIVE viewers. That's about as much as the ABSOLUTE largest SC2 events in terms of STREAM viewers. As for total viewers? The finals to large BW events (proleague, OSL) gather MILLIONS of television viewers. No single streamed SC2 event has ever broken 100k simultaneous viewers (MLG doesn't count because it has games other than SC2 and it splits crap into multiple streams) Salaries? Flash made 500k USD in 2010. Enough said. Top A-teamers and S class monsters all make around 6 figures. Oh and . . . . there's also prize money and endorsement deals. Sponsorships? Speaking of endorsement deals, BW teams are directly sponsored by multinational corporations with billions of dollars of assets. These sponsors spend millions on each of the BW teams each year. BW progamers have the opportunity to sign endorsement deals and appear in commercials broadcast throughout all of Korea. Player base? Well here's the surprising one, but believe it or not, more people play BW than SC2 regularly. 359,809 people in the entire world have played any sort of 1v1 SC2 ladder game in the past two weeks, according to SC2ranks. That's paltry. I'm not quite sure of how many people still play BW regularly, but it's high enough to make it one of the most popular games in PC bangs in Korea according to nationwide PC bang statistics. Oh and . . . . millions of people in China play BW . . . yeah. Also, BW has fan girls. SC2 . . . not so much. Notice how the gom studio is more often than not a sausage fest. neener neener You need to put the word "used to " in some of those. Off topic though, how many BW pro team are there currently active? I watched a little bit of the last pro league but only see some, like 8 or something. | ||
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