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On October 26 2011 10:06 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:51 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:40 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:
[quote]
Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions.
I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster.
mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time! I'm really trying to think what unit Protoss has that can reliably zone out Vikings, has an AoE 9 Range attack? Help me out here. This a delicate dance we do. Playfully ignorant of what can and can't be done. Maybe such a delicate dance could be applied to the matchup, so that the smallest mistake could win either side the battle... You mean like....*gasp* + Show Spoiler + Surprise! The matchup was already a delicate dance. Terrans already complain about how volatile engagements are, as do Protoss. On one hand, you get off beautiful EMPs, position your vikings correctly, and/or spread your bio out well and roll the P army. On the other hand, you keep fumbling the engagement with bad emps, bad stims, bad viking positioning/count, and/or get caught in a bad spot. The matchup was perfectly fine where it was with what each race had. This will just tilt it (most likely) into P favor.
Notice how your example is "If the T fucks up, he loses.. Doesn't really matter what the P does".
That's kind of how I felt playing the MU. Especially heavy templar, as EMP has a much longer range than storm, so you have to hope for the terran to fuck up to get storms off ._.
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On October 26 2011 10:06 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:01 dukem wrote:
I don't understand the weapon/armor buff for protoss, when they already had chrono as an advantage of getting out those upgrades fast?? Sounds like a fair compensation to me Poor scaling overall is one of the reasons. Colossi, Immortals, and DTs have fantastic scaling, but they're all either not used in mass, or get focused down. Zealots: 8>9>10>11 Stalkers: 14>15>16>!7 Sentrys: 6>7>8>9 We also have the most expensive units in the game.
Why does that matter? You can have less workers than Zerg, and still out mine them on every front. If Toss and Zerg both play perfectly, Toss will win 100% of the time. I wouldn't worry about beating Terran with mining at all. They are broken where thats concerned.
"Oh shit I lost all my SCV's... What do I now? Oh, right.. I'm Terran.  rops 6mules*"
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On October 26 2011 10:08 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 10:03 jazzman wrote:On October 26 2011 09:59 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 09:56 jazzman wrote:On October 26 2011 09:50 Whitewing wrote:
Ghost is horrifically overpowered lategame TvZ, and it's because snipe is spammable with no CD. Kind of like infested Terrans? I think infested terrans need a nerf too, so yeah. Infested Terrans don't hardcounter an entire race though. EMP does not hardcounter an entire race. That's a silly argument to make. Protoss have some of the highest health units in the game as it is: Zealot: 100/50 Stalker 80/80 Immortal 200/100 Archon 10/350 Also shields have the fastest regen rate of anything in the game. 1. Protoss units cost wayyy more than the other races. There's a reason why Terran is more cost-efficient than Protoss. 2. Terran medivacs >>> Protoss shield regeneration 3. Yeah, EMP pretty much hard-counters an entire race. Snipe does wonders against a lot of Zerg too  This right here is the reason for ALL the upgrades being reduced in cost. Winner, winner, chicken dinner. I don't think you get it. Protoss should be the most cost efficient with the strongest units. Zerg should be least, Terran, in the middle.
But see, they're not. Ling/bling or bio/ghosts is absurd in terms of efficiency when compared to a protoss army.
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On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before).
LOLOLOLOLOL
You must be trolling. One basing 2/2? So what does Zerg do if they scout that?
Oh thats right. Expand. Get 3 bases and just mass produce units. Protoss will not have the ability to beat you when they have so few units, no matter how powerful they are.
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terran players seem very spoiled. the ghost is a combat unit with bonus dmg to 1 armor type and no vulnerable armor type itself. it is small and moves at standard speed (infestors are big, HTs are slow). it gets its AoE for free, and it fits into a safe, ranged army composition that has very high DPS. ghost pushes can come early and can cripple the tankier toss compositions just because taking 30-50% of an army's EHP away instantly when you have a bio force standing with you is incredibly good. force fields and GS rotations can be very important for toss early, but sentries can stop mattering in the face of ghosts. it doesn't make the game unwinnable for toss, that much is obvious, but i think the spell was definitely too good and at least forced the toss into centering play around 1 ability sometimes. even with a significant radius nerf, i do not see it being bad or somehow becoming the least cost efficient spell for destroying energy.
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On October 26 2011 10:06 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:51 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:40 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:
[quote]
Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions.
I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster.
mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time! I'm really trying to think what unit Protoss has that can reliably zone out Vikings, has an AoE 9 Range attack? Help me out here. This a delicate dance we do. Playfully ignorant of what can and can't be done. Maybe such a delicate dance could be applied to the matchup, so that the smallest mistake could win either side the battle... You mean like....*gasp* + Show Spoiler + Surprise! The matchup was already a delicate dance. Terrans already complain about how volatile engagements are, as do Protoss. On one hand, you get off beautiful EMPs, position your vikings correctly, and/or spread your bio out well and roll the P army. On the other hand, you keep fumbling the engagement with bad emps, bad stims, bad viking positioning/count, and/or get caught in a bad spot. The matchup was perfectly fine where it was with what each race had. This will just tilt it (most likely) into P favor.
Yeah, that delicate dance called Cloak your Ghosts and walk through Storms, Carpet EMP, and then a-move your stimmed bioball.
Face it, Ghosts beat High Templars in every engagement unless Protoss has the vision advantage from the High Ground (Which is nullified by Vikings/Medivacs mind you).
You said yourself the only way Protoss can win the engagement is if Terran didn't make enough Vikings, or misses their EMPs completely, otherwise, Terran rolls through Protoss.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 10:06 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:51 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:40 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:
[quote]
Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions.
I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster.
mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time! I'm really trying to think what unit Protoss has that can reliably zone out Vikings, has an AoE 9 Range attack? Help me out here. This a delicate dance we do. Playfully ignorant of what can and can't be done. Maybe such a delicate dance could be applied to the matchup, so that the smallest mistake could win either side the battle... You mean like....*gasp* + Show Spoiler + Surprise! The matchup was already a delicate dance. Terrans already complain about how volatile engagements are, as do Protoss. On one hand, you get off beautiful EMPs, position your vikings correctly, and/or spread your bio out well and roll the P army. On the other hand, you keep fumbling the engagement with bad emps, bad stims, bad viking positioning/count, and/or get caught in a bad spot. The matchup was perfectly fine where it was with what each race had. This will just tilt it (most likely) into P favor.
The main issue is that it's completely dependant on how well the terran controls for the most part, and there's not a whole lot protoss can do to swing the engagement in his favor. Because ghosts outrange HT's, and vikings outrange everything as well, the onus is always going to be on the terran to control properly. Protoss can do their best to punish terran mistakes, but if terran doesn't make any mistakes, protoss can't win period, and they can't force mistakes.
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On October 26 2011 10:09 ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 Grndr101 wrote:
Of all the races they pick protoss to get a buff?? And upgrade wise too, idk you'd think they already outupgrade other races bc of chronoboost.
About EMP, I'd have to see what it looks like, but I'm guessing it will be a pretty big change. If you don't land emp's now you're already f'ed, but now it'll be even harder. 1. Protoss units cost wayyy more than the other races. There's a reason why Terran is more cost-efficient than Protoss. Stole this from another poster. We have been saying it for pages and pages. Read some of them. It will help. Protoss armies are not cost effective compared to the other races. The faster upgrades and tiny bit of extra money allows for a more cost effective army. It's not hard to understand.
Not cost effective my ass. Maybe in the first 8 minutes before either colossus, storm, or twilight upgrades, but after that they are on par with the other races. Until then, you still have FFs to protect yourself from being abused.
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On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before).
do you know that 2/0/2 is just 50/50 cheaper now???
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On October 26 2011 09:56 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:50 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 09:09 Genome852 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Arko.is wrote:The snipe ability needs a cooldown (5-10 sec should do it). Makes sens even  Yes because Protoss totally care about snipe in TvP... (energy spent on EMP is almost always better than sniping). It wouldn't change TvP at all since HTs will still get sniped down with any excess energy left on the ghosts consider how low HP they have. If snipe had 10 second cooldown it would pretty much never be used in TvZ, and ghost would be even less useful in TvT. On October 26 2011 09:09 unsaintly wrote:On October 26 2011 09:06 SolidMoose wrote:On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks. EMP was "meh"? What the hell ...Dealing 1000+ dmg before attacking the Protoss seems pretty meh you're right. EMP can't outright kill units though, it's just shield damage, unlike storm which can instagib an entire army if you have a good position. Each spell has pros and cons, wish people would stop arguing about which one's are 'better'... Ghost is horrifically overpowered lategame TvZ, and it's because snipe is spammable with no CD. IMO ghosts only become powerful in lategame TvZ when the Terran reaches a critical mass of them. It's like TvT bio vs mech... zerg (bio) should be trying to keep ghost count (mech) low considering how ghosts, like tanks, just get exponentially better the more of them you have... especially since they're so supply efficient against zerg. When it gets to the point where the Terran has replaced all his marines with ghosts, and the zerg hasn't done anything but sit in his base, it'll be pretty difficult for the Z to win... (MVP did this against July and Nestea) Though if Blizz did decide to nerf them I'd think they should just give them the light attribute, so that banelings kill them as quickly as they do marines.
Agree totally (apart from maybe the nerf suggestion, just on the basis that we can leave that to Blizz), I don't like people bitching for days afterwards when a T beats a Z with mass ghosts - they didn't magic them out of the fucking air. They're not particularly cheap. People forget so often that the late game is a result of what happened in early and mid game, I would put forward that any zerg who let's terran get enough ghosts to just roll them is doing it wrong.
On October 26 2011 09:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:51 TimeSpiral wrote:People will always QQ about Terran, so whatever about that. + Show Spoiler [racist eyes only] +The whole community has this weird racist tendency to hate Terran. It's pretty funny, actually. But hey, you can't truly have a social community without an outlet for latent real-life racism and discrimination  But Protoss already has an upgrade advantage, especially in TvP. The shields, I can see, as that is a very niche Toss thing, but weapons upgrades too? Nah. That doesn't make any sense. Making sweeping generalizations about our community being racist, ignoring in-game imbalances, and not reading the thread as to why the patch changes might just be justified? Cool beans. 3 for 3.
Well...he's kind of right though. People hate terran. (Some) people go so far as to barely pay attention to the games anymore, they just QQ every time a terran beats a P or T.
Is that controversial? I thought it was well established that terran gets more hate than is necessary.
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Very good change. Remeber that +1 armor for a toss is about only 1/2 of it's health. Archons have been doing great at the pro level but thats with almost 0 armor upgrades. A big reason for this chabge I believe is because, how bad gateway units scale. If toss is 3-3-0 and terran 3-3 Marauder does 6 more damage to shield and 3 more to haul to stalkers. Toss will be doing the same damage as the begining of the game and marines will now do 50% more to protoss shields. EMP kind of works the same way a 80 stalker is so bad compared to the marauder. It costs more, does less dps, less armor, less health and that's why toss are strugling.
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yay protoss buff!! and finally a ghost nerf. the aoe range was tooo big
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On October 26 2011 10:10 Link_Drako wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:01 dukem wrote:
I don't understand the weapon/armor buff for protoss, when they already had chrono as an advantage of getting out those upgrades fast?? Sounds like a fair compensation to me Poor scaling overall is one of the reasons. Colossi, Immortals, and DTs have fantastic scaling, but they're all either not used in mass, or get focused down. Zealots: 8>9>10>11 Stalkers: 14>15>16>!7 Sentrys: 6>7>8>9 We also have the most expensive units in the game. Why does that matter? You can have less workers than Zerg, and still out mine them on every front. If Toss and Zerg both play perfectly, Toss will win 100% of the time. I wouldn't worry about beating Terran with mining at all. They are broken where thats concerned. "Oh shit I lost all my SCV's... What do I now? Oh, right.. I'm Terran. rops 6mules*"
How does that even make sense? Please explain that to me. This isn't flaming, or derogatory, I'm legitimately curious.
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On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before).
'TIS THE ONLY THING TO KEEP US AFLOAT! YAR!
Sorry, but I had to laugh at the amount of hyperbole and other extreme wording you threw in here when this patch is pretty minor for PvZ.
First of all, the EMP change does nothing in this match-up.
Secondly, the slight decreases in Protoss upgrade costs (and I do mean slight) just mean that Protoss can get upgrades about 10 seconds faster. Going for +2 or +3 means we're already off 2 or 3 (or more) bases, meaning we've already got 4+ gases being used. If we want to get those upgrades started, we're going to wait for the gas anyway. Woohoo, we finish 10 seconds earlier. Not gamebreaking.
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On October 26 2011 10:11 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before). do you know that 2/0/2 is just 50/50 cheaper now???
That extra third of a stalker is going to break the matchup.
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On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before).
2 base turtle to 3/3/3? Until then you got the whole fucking map.
I don't know, a lot of people in this thread are not understanding what a subtle change the cost decrease is, this shit gets blown waaaay out of proportion. I'm out I can't stand this anymore.
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Protoss buff,but I think the buff doesn't have any effects to PvT now.
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On October 26 2011 10:11 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:51 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:40 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:
[quote]
mjwNshake 863 (master Terran)
Milkshake 558 (master Protoss)
Who said I was Platinum ?
I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective.
In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time! I'm really trying to think what unit Protoss has that can reliably zone out Vikings, has an AoE 9 Range attack? Help me out here. This a delicate dance we do. Playfully ignorant of what can and can't be done. Maybe such a delicate dance could be applied to the matchup, so that the smallest mistake could win either side the battle... You mean like....*gasp* + Show Spoiler + Surprise! The matchup was already a delicate dance. Terrans already complain about how volatile engagements are, as do Protoss. On one hand, you get off beautiful EMPs, position your vikings correctly, and/or spread your bio out well and roll the P army. On the other hand, you keep fumbling the engagement with bad emps, bad stims, bad viking positioning/count, and/or get caught in a bad spot. The matchup was perfectly fine where it was with what each race had. This will just tilt it (most likely) into P favor. Yeah, that delicate dance called Cloak your Ghosts and walk through Storms, Carpet EMP, and then a-move your stimmed bioball.Face it, Ghosts beat High Templars in every engagement unless Protoss has the vision advantage from the High Ground (Which is nullified by Vikings/Medivacs mind you). You said yourself the only way Protoss can win the engagement is if Terran didn't make enough Vikings, or misses their EMPs completely, otherwise, Terran rolls through Protoss.
I was speaking from a Terran perspective. Are you claiming that Protoss just a-moves to victory/defeat most of the time?
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I don't think the upgrade cost changes were totally necessary.. But I guess I'm not complaining haha. I don't really know if the radius was really a problem though because that means just getting an extra Ghost or two.
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On October 26 2011 10:10 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before). LOLOLOLOLOL You must be trolling. One basing 2/2? So what does Zerg do if they scout that? Oh thats right. Expand. Get 3 bases and just mass produce units. Protoss will not have the ability to beat you when they have so few units, no matter how powerful they are.
How do scout it without an Overlord? Oh.. And less we forget that Zerg CANNOT scout early game against toss once the sentry is down. But what do we do if we can scout? NOTHING. Toss is the only race in the game that can SPEED UP upgrade research.
BTW, I do know about the "Push Through Worker" scouting method. Doesn't matter on a Pro level, why would it matter anywhere else? Zerg has the worst W/L ratio against all races, and this is by MLG/GSL/TSL standards. Before you call me a Troll, do some research.
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EPT
