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On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before).
100% true if anything this is going to encourage two base timing pushes with double/triple forge not to mention how powerful this already is seeing Protoss use it consistently with like 80% win rate in esv matches which was a PvP finals btw
Wow can't believe this patch add this onto how difficult forcefields are to deal with forcing Zerg to lose a good chunk of their army and I'm gonna guess 70% win rate vs Zerg in protoss favor.
I'm in masters and Ive already got a 30% win rate vs toss .
Meanwhile I crush high masters terran not sure how blizz gonna allow this one through.
Sorry for grammar on phone 
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On October 26 2011 10:15 Link_Drako wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:10 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before). LOLOLOLOLOL You must be trolling. One basing 2/2? So what does Zerg do if they scout that? Oh thats right. Expand. Get 3 bases and just mass produce units. Protoss will not have the ability to beat you when they have so few units, no matter how powerful they are. How do scout it without an Overlord? Oh.. And less we forget that Zerg CANNOT scout early game against toss once the sentry is down. But what do we do if we can scout? NOTHING. Toss is the only race in the game that can SPEED UP upgrade research. BTW, I do know about the "Push Through Worker" scouting method. Doesn't matter on a Pro level, why would it matter anywhere else? Zerg has the worst W/L ratio against all races, and this is by MLG/GSL/TSL standards. Before you call me a Troll, do some research.
No, in korea, most specifically gsl zvt is 50% and zvp is like 60-70%. Quit making baseless complaints.
On October 26 2011 10:16 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before). 100% true if anything this is going to encourage two base timing pushes with double/triple forge not to mention how powerful this already is seeing Protoss use it consistently with like 80% win rate in esv matches which was a PvP finals btw Wow can't believe this path add this onto how difficult forcefields are to de with forcing Zerg to lose a good chunk of their army and I'm gonna guess 70% win rate vs Zerg in protoss favor. I'm in masters and Ive already got a 30% win rate vs toss . Meanwhile I crush high masters terran not sure how bliss gonna allow this one through. Sorry for grammar on phone
This is just your fault. If you can hold a 2 base 2 forge timing attack, you can hold it off after 1.4.2 when protoss pushes with an extra half of a sentry.
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On October 26 2011 10:09 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:51 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:40 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:
[quote]
mjwNshake 863 (master Terran)
Milkshake 558 (master Protoss)
Who said I was Platinum ?
I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective.
In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time! I'm really trying to think what unit Protoss has that can reliably zone out Vikings, has an AoE 9 Range attack? Help me out here. This a delicate dance we do. Playfully ignorant of what can and can't be done. Maybe such a delicate dance could be applied to the matchup, so that the smallest mistake could win either side the battle... You mean like....*gasp* + Show Spoiler + Surprise! The matchup was already a delicate dance. Terrans already complain about how volatile engagements are, as do Protoss. On one hand, you get off beautiful EMPs, position your vikings correctly, and/or spread your bio out well and roll the P army. On the other hand, you keep fumbling the engagement with bad emps, bad stims, bad viking positioning/count, and/or get caught in a bad spot. The matchup was perfectly fine where it was with what each race had. This will just tilt it (most likely) into P favor. Notice how your example is "If the T fucks up, he loses.. Doesn't really matter what the P does". That's kind of how I felt playing the MU. Especially heavy templar, as EMP has a much longer range than storm, so you have to hope for the terran to fuck up to get storms off ._.
Everyone stop fucking exaggerating. Split your templars and storms land. Storms do a lot of damage to bio, who have small HP (comparatively). Or feedback the fuck out of his medivacs which makes his units much, much less cost effective and you roll him the fuck over. Bioball with no medivacs vs protoss army = death. You got an EMP nerf, be happy.
And to the terran above (presumably was a terran), kinda seems like the MU wasn't fine, man.
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i play zerg i dont think this makes protoss OP
brotosses already upgrade like mad if theyre good anyway, i mean you have a spell that can increase research time no one good is going to pass up on that
the difference in time/money is so small that its not going to have much of an effect
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On October 26 2011 10:15 Link_Drako wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:10 Cloud9157 wrote:On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before). LOLOLOLOLOL You must be trolling. One basing 2/2? So what does Zerg do if they scout that? Oh thats right. Expand. Get 3 bases and just mass produce units. Protoss will not have the ability to beat you when they have so few units, no matter how powerful they are. How do scout it without an Overlord? Oh.. And less we forget that Zerg CANNOT scout early game against toss once the sentry is down. But what do we do if we can scout? NOTHING. Toss is the only race in the game that can SPEED UP upgrade research. BTW, I do know about the "Push Through Worker" scouting method. Doesn't matter on a Pro level, why would it matter anywhere else? Zerg has the worst W/L ratio against all races, and this is by MLG/GSL/TSL standards. Before you call me a Troll, do some research.
Stats from GSL now plz.
Do you not know about sacking an Overlord at roughly the 8 minute mark?
Do you not know about sending a ling in to see if they expanded?
Jesus, its so fucking easy. If theres no expo at the 8 minute mark, they're teching really hard or 1 basing.
And were you missing when Protoss win rate was complete shit against Zerg?
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On October 26 2011 10:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:
i play zerg i dont think this makes protoss OP
brotosses already upgrade like mad if theyre good anyway, i mean you have a spell that can increase research time no one good is going to pass up on that
the difference in time/money is so small that its not going to have much of an effect
Finally. A rational person.
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k, how long before we see pro players rushing triple forges, fellow brotoss!~~
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On October 26 2011 10:12 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:11 rpgalon wrote:On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before). do you know that 2/0/2 is just 50/50 cheaper now??? That extra third of a stalker is going to break the matchup.
It's more like 2/3 
As a Zerg, I'm somewhat excited by this patch. Shields upgrades getting taken early could lead to interesting harass, and they apply to air, so I expect to see them fairly often. I wonder if tri-forge will be viable, considering all three upgrades are cheaper now, and dual-forge worked before.
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On October 26 2011 10:19 Smoodish wrote:
k, how long before we see pro players rushing triple forges, fellow brotoss!~~
Difference isn't that extreme really. I don't see it happening. Although, if it does, it will be epic.
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No idea why the upgrades are cheaper now, shields should be expensive since 1 upgrade will boost every unit's/building's survivability. No other upgrade covers so much. Weapons and armor seems kinda strange as well.
Ghost nerf was expected.
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On October 26 2011 10:18 ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:
i play zerg i dont think this makes protoss OP
brotosses already upgrade like mad if theyre good anyway, i mean you have a spell that can increase research time no one good is going to pass up on that
the difference in time/money is so small that its not going to have much of an effect Finally. A rational person.
Zerg and Terran are doomed.
DOOOOOOOOOOMED.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 26 2011 10:17 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:09 Euronyme wrote:On October 26 2011 10:06 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:56 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:51 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:40 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:
[quote]
Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily.
This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts.
It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time! I'm really trying to think what unit Protoss has that can reliably zone out Vikings, has an AoE 9 Range attack? Help me out here. This a delicate dance we do. Playfully ignorant of what can and can't be done. Maybe such a delicate dance could be applied to the matchup, so that the smallest mistake could win either side the battle... You mean like....*gasp* + Show Spoiler + Surprise! The matchup was already a delicate dance. Terrans already complain about how volatile engagements are, as do Protoss. On one hand, you get off beautiful EMPs, position your vikings correctly, and/or spread your bio out well and roll the P army. On the other hand, you keep fumbling the engagement with bad emps, bad stims, bad viking positioning/count, and/or get caught in a bad spot. The matchup was perfectly fine where it was with what each race had. This will just tilt it (most likely) into P favor. Notice how your example is "If the T fucks up, he loses.. Doesn't really matter what the P does". That's kind of how I felt playing the MU. Especially heavy templar, as EMP has a much longer range than storm, so you have to hope for the terran to fuck up to get storms off ._. Everyone stop fucking exaggerating. Split your templars and storms land. Storms do a lot of damage to bio, who have small HP (comparatively). Or feedback the fuck out of his medivacs which makes his units much, much less cost effective and you roll him the fuck over. Bioball with no medivacs vs protoss army = death. You got an EMP nerf, be happy. And to the terran above (presumably was a terran), kinda seems like the MU wasn't fine, man.
It isn't and will continue to be screwed up. As long as T is forced to use MMMGV, the matchup will be on a razor thin margin that will grossly favor whichever player guesses the best from the other player. Using too many resources (scans/observers included) to determine the one of few powerful builds the other is doing makes you outright lose to every one of those builds. It's like this for both sides.
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On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before).
Hahahahahaha I'm waking my neighbours here LOL.
Protoss is about as imbalanced in terms of being good in SC2 as my grandma is. And she's dead.
One base turtle 3/3/3? Well maybe in the lower bronze leagues, but honestly all kinds of weird shit seems to happen there. It's like a 4chan on steroids in terms of gameplay.
None in their right mind will go 1 base 3/3/3 because the upgrade is 25/25 cheaper. That's like 1/3 of a stalker. if even that.
Considering the stalker is cost inefficient against both marauders and roaches I'd say it's a much needed change. Awesome.
On October 26 2011 10:21 Kaeru wrote:
LOL! 3-0-3 Upgraded Protoss owns 3-3 Terran so hard... We really don't have anything that can deal with Zealots, why do you think the combat mode for Hellion will be added in HotS? Because Zealots with support rape a Terran army.
But I would prefere Protoss being even more OP in late game rather then having them crying all over Battle.net day and night... Because that is just so annoying.
That would be true, unless there were marines and marauders. If you micro them properly you won't lose anything.
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I don't think the shield upgrades change that much.
Sure, it helps out Protoss, but in general armor upgrades are better.
PvP: Weapons for Colossus
PvT: Armour for Zealots
PvZ: Weapons for Zealots/Colossus
There's really no good situation of getting shields, but it helps later on once you get archon tech, I suppose.
I think the EMP nerf does hurt TvZ a bit, since infestors are so large that you wont be able to hit nearly as many as before. TvP is obviously going to be changed a little bit, but not as much.
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On October 26 2011 10:22 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:06 Link_Drako wrote:
This is going to destroy PvZ. Now what will happen in most match ups is this: Toss will one base a 2/2/0 or 2/0/2 or if your really unlucky 3/3/3 and this will happen by mid-game. Zerg already can do nothing to them for the first 6mins of a game. Now your basically saying when they do decided to come out, they will have out done Zerg in upgrades, which was the only thing keeping us afloat.
This is by far the worst patch to Toss I have seen. I am astounded that they worry about PvT when it's plain as day that ZvP is unbalanced in favor of Toss. Toss had methods of dealing with Terran. Zerg is the one who is hurting the most, yet not a single patch has fixed the issues. No real help has come to them at all.
This patch won't last. Mark my words, Toss will be unbalanced now for sure. (Like they weren't before). Hahahahahaha I'm waking my neighbours here LOL. Protoss is about as imbalanced in terms of being good in SC2 as my grandma is. And she's dead.One base turtle 3/3/3? Well maybe in the lower bronze leagues, but honestly all kinds of weird shit seems to happen there. It's like a 4chan on steroids in terms of gameplay. None in their right mind will go 1 base 3/3/3 because the upgrade is 25/25 cheaper. That's like 1/3 of a stalker. if even that. Considering the stalker is cost inefficient against both marauders and roaches I'd say it's a much needed change. Awesome.
Ah fuck I lol'd hard at that.
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On October 26 2011 10:21 Kaeru wrote:
LOL! 3-0-3 Upgraded Protoss owns 3-3 Terran so hard... We really don't have anything that can deal with Zealots, why do you think the combat mode for Hellion will be added in HotS? Because Zealots with support rape a Terran army.
But I would prefere Protoss being even more OP in late game rather then having them crying all over Battle.net day and night... Because that is just so annoying.
Good thing Zealots are around, or else you would just a move through stalkers and laugh as you rolled the rest of Protoss.
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On October 26 2011 10:23 OfficerTJHooker wrote:
I don't think the shield upgrades change that much.
Sure, it helps out Protoss, but in general armor upgrades are better.
PvP: Weapons for Colossus
PvT: Armour for Zealots
PvZ: Weapons for Zealots/Colossus
There's really no good situation of getting shields, but it helps later on once you get archon tech, I suppose.
I think the EMP nerf does hurt TvZ a bit, since infestors are so large that you wont be able to hit nearly as many as before. TvP is obviously going to be changed a little bit, but not as much.
Your kidding right? This is a direct buff to any star gate play, pheonix and blink stalker harass will be more effective, and the void rays with ground support both benefit from shields, at the very least.
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Give us "co-op" replay viewing!
Also I never realized toss upgrades were cheaper than zerg's. I guess it makes sense.
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EPT
