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On October 26 2011 09:48 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:44 diLLa wrote:
What some people don't get is that terran actually doesn't need the EMP to actually kill stuff, which a lot of them claim. Terran already has insane dps on stimmed marines and marauders. An EMP + stimmed bio is SICK damage, and protoss couldn't do shit about it in a proper way.
Getting rid of energy at an HT is the same as killing it when it comes to battles, not even mentioning the fact it halves the hp of pretty much every unit protoss has. I'd rather have a spell instant half the bio HP, than a feedback or storm.
And then I ain't even including the fact it has cloak, can nuke and does have a standard attack too.
It's a good change imo. You do have a combination of spells that do that. Stim + even 1 tick of storm = 30-40 damage, ~32-50% of the health of my bio ball.
How do you storm if it's already insane hard to actually dodge the EMP's. And you didn't include the fact that you can micro out of storms, while EMP is instant. AND that ghost is easier to tech to -> storm is much much further away in the tech tree.
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EMP and Shield changes are good. But Weapons and Armor changes? Why?
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As a terran who just started to get a good win rate in Tvp, this change makes me feel really scared. I hate hate hate facing a well upgraded toss army.
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On October 26 2011 09:48 XRaDiiX wrote:
This is so disappointing as Zerg; Protoss already get to chronoboost their upgrades now their gonna get cheaper chronoboosted upgrades.
Thus spells doom vs Zerg. Protoss upgrades are way more beneficial To a Protoss army than zerg upgrades are to a zerg
lol? +1 weapons for stalkers is canceled out by +1 armor for roaches. +1 ranged for roaches is canceled out by +2 armor and +2 shields for stalkers.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 09:09 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:04 Arko.is wrote:The snipe ability needs a cooldown (5-10 sec should do it). Makes sens even  Yes because Protoss totally care about snipe in TvP... (energy spent on EMP is almost always better than sniping). It wouldn't change TvP at all since HTs will still get sniped down with any excess energy left on the ghosts consider how low HP they have. If snipe had 10 second cooldown it would pretty much never be used in TvZ, and ghost would be even less useful in TvT. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:09 unsaintly wrote:On October 26 2011 09:06 SolidMoose wrote:On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks. EMP was "meh"? What the hell ...Dealing 1000+ dmg before attacking the Protoss seems pretty meh you're right. EMP can't outright kill units though, it's just shield damage, unlike storm which can instagib an entire army if you have a good position. Each spell has pros and cons, wish people would stop arguing about which one's are 'better'...
Ghost is horrifically overpowered lategame TvZ, and it's because snipe is spammable with no CD.
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On October 26 2011 09:49 Stanlot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:47 ayaz2810 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:46 Stanlot wrote:
I actually prefer a radius nerf to a range nerf. In a major engagement, EMPs are gonna be blanketing your army no matter what, even if the range is decreased because just about no one is fast enough to neutralize 6-10 ghosts with feedbacks before they drop. Radius decrease means at least a good portion of your army won't get all their shields blasted away instantly. There are actually a couple people in this thread that think it WAS a range nerf. Derp. To be fair, it's an "effective" range nerf since it dropped from 12 to 11.5
I'll give you that I suppose. 4.2% range nerf. HOLY DICKFUCKS. xD
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On October 26 2011 09:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:40 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time! I'm really trying to think what unit Protoss has that can reliably zone out Vikings, has an AoE 9 Range attack? Help me out here.
This a delicate dance we do. Playfully ignorant of what can and can't be done. Maybe such a delicate dance could be applied to the matchup, so that the smallest mistake could win either side the battle...
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People will always QQ about Terran, so whatever about that. + Show Spoiler [racist eyes only] +The whole community has this weird racist tendency to hate Terran. It's pretty funny, actually. But hey, you can't truly have a social community without an outlet for latent real-life racism and discrimination 
But Protoss already has an upgrade advantage, especially in TvP. The shields, I can see, as that is a very niche Toss thing, but weapons upgrades too? Nah. That doesn't make any sense.
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On October 26 2011 09:51 TimeSpiral wrote:People will always QQ about Terran, so whatever about that. + Show Spoiler [racist eyes only] +The whole community has this weird racist tendency to hate Terran. It's pretty funny, actually. But hey, you can't truly have a social community without an outlet for latent real-life racism and discrimination But Protoss already has an upgrade advantage, especially in TvP. The shields, I can see, as that is a very niche Toss thing, but weapons upgrades too? Nah. That doesn't make any sense.
Kinda does from a cost effectiveness standpoint. Toss units will probably get at least +1 earlier. This would make each unit slightly more cost effective. That is what protoss has been having issues with. Cost effectiveness of units. Seems to make sense to me. We have to see how it plays out.
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why do you guys not realise that a 0.5 decrease on a thing with a radius of 2 is a (1 - 1.5^2/2^2) or 44% area reduction ;/
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Unbelievable that protoss* are still QQing in this thread despite all round buffs to them in this patch. Just be happy, Blizzard wants to do small changes, they aren't suddenly going to reduce the range of EMP to less than storm and feedback.
Like...the fact that EMP has longer range than HT's spells is a design decision. It wasn't an accident. Blizzard aren't going to read this thread** and go 'OH SHIT. Ghosts outrange templar? Why the fuck didn't anyone say?!'
On a less irritable note, don't think anyone can really complain about these changes, ghosts do too much damage to protoss, and protoss need a general buff and we've seen the strength of toss upgrades before. I am slightly worried because infestors are pretty bulky anyway and this means EMP will hit less than ever before. That may be a problem that only I have though, always had trouble vs infestors even with EMP.
*Some protoss anyways, I would never accuse all protoss players of whining as I have the greatest respect for the protoss race as a whole /diplomacy can'tweallbenicetoeachother
**well they ent gonna read it at all, lawl
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On October 26 2011 09:53 xZiGGY wrote:
why do you guys not realise that a 0.5 decrease on a thing with a radius of 2 is a (1 - 1.5^2/2^2) or 44% area reduction ;/
I'm sure some of the more math inclined players do realize that. It's what EMP needed.
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upgrade changes seem a bit weird, it's good to see that they're doing something about EMPs though.
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On October 26 2011 09:53 xZiGGY wrote:
why do you guys not realise that a 0.5 decrease on a thing with a radius of 2 is a (1 - 1.5^2/2^2) or 44% area reduction ;/
we do realize that actually. That's why it's a significant change.
A much needed one though. I think this is a very good decision by blizzard, but I am disappointed that they did not go after snipe too. I'd expect that to be the next thing examined.
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On October 26 2011 09:47 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:46 chasfrank wrote:
I'm curious whether or not they will add .5 or 1 range to EMP as the timing window to get it off on templars in time is really really tight now. That's how it's supposed to be. You shouldn't be able to get an automatic win in the EMP vs Feedback war.
Seriously. I was going to reply with this verbatim.
Now maybe- just maybe- high templars will actually be able to cast something? They might actually be useful in a caster war? That would be swell. lol.
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On October 26 2011 09:49 iNbluE wrote:
Weird changes for the upgrades. I mean, there's no real problem in PvT late game right? So making upgrades cheaper, I don't really get it. Especially since these differences are so weak when reaching 2-2 upgrades (at least 3 bases). The shield changes make sense though. Nice archon buff.
As for the EMP nerf, FINALLY.
By making the upgrades cheaper, even when it is slight like this, You are able to use that money for other things, like another forge. By having another forge, you can keep up with a terran that has double engineering bays upgrading, and if they only have one, you are ahead, which can help in the mid- to late game. Protoss was weaker than Terran, and this will help a lot. Also, you may not need the third base to reach 2-2 as Protoss anymore since the upgrades are not as expensive.
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On October 26 2011 09:50 Whitewing wrote:
Ghost is horrifically overpowered lategame TvZ, and it's because snipe is spammable with no CD.
Kind of like infested Terrans?
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I wonder how many infestors emp can hit now? I think you can hit about 11 infestors now when they are really clumped up.
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On October 26 2011 09:50 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:09 Genome852 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Arko.is wrote:The snipe ability needs a cooldown (5-10 sec should do it). Makes sens even Yes because Protoss totally care about snipe in TvP... (energy spent on EMP is almost always better than sniping). It wouldn't change TvP at all since HTs will still get sniped down with any excess energy left on the ghosts consider how low HP they have. If snipe had 10 second cooldown it would pretty much never be used in TvZ, and ghost would be even less useful in TvT. On October 26 2011 09:09 unsaintly wrote:On October 26 2011 09:06 SolidMoose wrote:On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks. EMP was "meh"? What the hell ...Dealing 1000+ dmg before attacking the Protoss seems pretty meh you're right. EMP can't outright kill units though, it's just shield damage, unlike storm which can instagib an entire army if you have a good position. Each spell has pros and cons, wish people would stop arguing about which one's are 'better'... Ghost is horrifically overpowered lategame TvZ, and it's because snipe is spammable with no CD.
IMO ghosts only become powerful in lategame TvZ when the Terran reaches a critical mass of them. It's like TvT bio vs mech... zerg (bio) should be trying to keep ghost count (mech) low considering how ghosts, like tanks, just get exponentially better the more of them you have... especially since they're so supply efficient against zerg. When it gets to the point where the Terran has replaced all his marines with ghosts, and the zerg hasn't done anything but sit in his base, it'll be pretty difficult for the Z to win... (MVP did this against July and Nestea)
Though if Blizz did decide to nerf them I'd think they should just give them the light attribute, so that banelings kill them as quickly as they do marines.
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On October 26 2011 09:51 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:40 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time! I'm really trying to think what unit Protoss has that can reliably zone out Vikings, has an AoE 9 Range attack? Help me out here. This a delicate dance we do. Playfully ignorant of what can and can't be done. Maybe such a delicate dance could be applied to the matchup, so that the smallest mistake could win either side the battle...
You mean like....*gasp*+ Show Spoiler +
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EPT
