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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I think PvT is mosttttttttttttly fine, but.... P late game murders T late game, and P has more stylistic freedom (there's actually tech worth getting unlike for terran). Still terran is really strong midgame and early late game. Biggest reason to fix things is to make the matchup more fun, not so much balance at this point. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On December 10 2011 22:24 Lorch wrote: So I'm just making sure I get you right here. You really believe that players subjective feel about the matchup (especially when asking random players that could be in any league) matters more than pure statistic winrates on pro level? Perception indeed is more important than raw data when it comes to balancing the game and making design decisions. Plus the pro level you're referring to is noobish compared to players like nestea, hero or mvp. On December 10 2011 22:56 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Stargate isnt useless PvT. I think PvT is mosttttttttttttly fine, but.... P late game murders T late game, and P has more stylistic freedom (there's actually tech worth getting unlike for terran). Still terran is really strong midgame and early late game. Biggest reason to fix things is to make the matchup more fun, not so much balance at this point. Dustin Browder stated though that he doesn't like the idea of races being overpowered or underpowered at different stages of the game, so we might see a fix regarding this issue (most likely with HotS). | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On December 10 2011 22:43 mavsfan0041 wrote: You quit starcraft because of the EMP nerf? Ouch... Doesn't that seem a bit harsh? Have a bit more faith in Blizz. They'll get it right eventually! But likely not before hots. Terran hots units are all mech, so Blizzard is probably not going to touch mech until the expansion. Until then we're stuck with the powerful midgame-worthless lategame bio compositions. | ||
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kiy0
Portugal593 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:01 EmilA wrote: But likely not before hots. Terran hots units are all mech, so Blizzard is probably not going to touch mech until the expansion. Until then we're stuck with the powerful midgame-worthless lategame bio compositions. Got Ultras? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Broodlords? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Infestors? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Overseers? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Mutas? Np, I got Ghosts. Got HTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got DTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Immortals? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Sentries? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Phoenixes? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Zealots? Np, I got Ghosts. So until other races get a unit that counters more than half of the other races complete arsenal, you please refrain from balance whining as a Terran. | ||
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NKsc2
Sweden133 Posts
On December 10 2011 22:56 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Stargate isnt useless PvT. I think PvT is mosttttttttttttly fine, but.... P late game murders T late game, and P has more stylistic freedom (there's actually tech worth getting unlike for terran). Still terran is really strong midgame and early late game. Biggest reason to fix things is to make the matchup more fun, not so much balance at this point. Factory isn't useless in TvP either. There is 1/1/1, there's hellion all ins like the one HuK got knocked out by, there is tank marine, there's mech etc. We were referring to standard lategame and you don't see any stargate units used there. | ||
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:15 NKsc2 wrote: Factory isn't useless in TvP either. There is 1/1/1, there's hellion all ins like the one HuK got knocked out by, there is tank marine, there's mech etc. We were referring to standard lategame and you don't see any stargate units used there. wheree i can see that strategy ?O_o hellion all in , was he playing against who? | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:11 kiy0 wrote: Got Ultras? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Broodlords? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Infestors? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Overseers? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Mutas? Np, I got Ghosts. Got HTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got DTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Immortals? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Sentries? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Phoenixes? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Zealots? Np, I got Ghosts. So until other races get a unit that counters more than half of the other races complete arsenal, you please refrain from balance whining as a Terran. List of terran units that the carrier counters: Marauder, reaper, ghost, helion, siege tank, thor, medvac, raven, banshee. List of terran units the counters the carrier: Marine, viking, battlecruiser. List of zerg units that the carrier counters: Queen, zergling, baneling, roach, ultralisk, mutalisk, broodlord. List of zerg units that counter the carrier: Hydralisk, corruptor. Protoss has an unit that counters more than half of the other races complete arsenal. You happy? | ||
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Lorch
Germany3689 Posts
On December 10 2011 22:50 Apolex wrote: winrate for terran vs protoss is not the 45% for everyone. That is only at pro level where their micro is 100x better then regular people. The win rate for toss was 56% , in some leagues 58% BEFORE patch 1.42, it's gotta be a lot higher now. Toss were raping terrans in all leagues except GM and high masters BEFORE patch. It got worse after patch. When will people realize that balance should never ever matter in any random wood league. Who cares if Jimmy the bronze terran keeps loosing to protoss because he fucking sucks. And I don't care whether Jimmy is bronze or diamand. Low League imbalance is caused by lack of skill and not because the matchup is broken. Oh and no offense Jinro but it has been known for a very long time that TvP is far away from being your best matchup, you complained about it when T had like a 60% winratio vs P and you complain about it now that P is slightly favored. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:22 Sea_Food wrote: List of terran units that the carrier counters: Marauder, reaper, ghost, helion, siege tank, thor, medvac, raven, banshee. List of terran units the counters the carrier: Marine, viking, battlecruiser. List of zerg units that the carrier counters: Queen, zergling, baneling, roach, ultralisk, mutalisk, broodlord. List of zerg units that counter the carrier: Hydralisk, corruptor. Protoss has an unit that counters more than half of the other races complete arsenal. You happy? You just didn't compare a barracks unit with the useless overpriced T3 capital ship xD | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:21 ImFromPortugal wrote: wheree i can see that strategy ?O_o hellion all in , was he playing against who? didnt watch the games but I assume he talks about huk getting knocked out by Keen. games obviously on www.gomtv.net | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:25 Lorch wrote: When will people realize that balance should never ever matter in any random wood league. Who cares if Jimmy the bronze terran keeps loosing to protoss because he fucking sucks. And I don't care whether Jimmy is bronze or diamand. Low League imbalance is caused by lack of skill and not because the matchup is broken. Oh and no offense Jinro but it has been known for a very long time that TvP is far away from being your best matchup, you complained about it when T had like a 60% winratio vs P and you complain about it now that P is slightly favored. It's a bit weird to bring up someones prowess in a matchup in this kind of discussion, especially since there's very few people in this thread that can even play TvP on higher level than Jinro. There would really be much discussion if we starts doing that. | ||
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:25 Lorch wrote: When will people realize that balance should never ever matter in any random wood league. Who cares if Jimmy the bronze terran keeps loosing to protoss because he fucking sucks. And I don't care whether Jimmy is bronze or diamand. Low League imbalance is caused by lack of skill and not because the matchup is broken. Oh and no offense Jinro but it has been known for a very long time that TvP is far away from being your best matchup, you complained about it when T had like a 60% winratio vs P and you complain about it now that P is slightly favored. Are you serious? Did you even read his post? You know, the part where he said the matchup was basically fine and didn't need balance changes? | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
Hoenstly, I've watched many matches of Jinro where he has actually been ahead of his Toss opponent but yet still gets rofl stomped by late game Toss and other games where he has JUST come out on top. My translation of that post from Jinro is; Leave the fucking MU as is. Because it's already next to impossible to beat a late game toss. Another nerf to Terrans and it's not even fucking worth spending such amounts of time on this race when you can just 1 A when playing the Toss race. I can't see Terran getting a buff just because of the pure fact we would see more "QQ Terran imba" in these threads then we've ever seen. I guess it's best just to leave it with Terrans knowing they are playing against a 1 A ticking time bomb. @Lorch, it's very easy to say "wood league" doesn't matter. Enjoy your easy P v T wins champ, well deserved wins those are. | ||
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-Secret-
United Kingdom233 Posts
On December 11 2011 00:21 ZorBa.G wrote: I think it's quiet disgusting to see the attitude of the current Protoss players. It's as if they think this game owes them something! Hoenstly, I've watched many matches of Jinro where he has actually been ahead of his Toss opponent but yet still gets rofl stomped by late game Toss and other games where he has JUST come out on top. My translation of that post from Jinro is; Leave the fucking MU as is. Because it's already next to impossible to beat a late game toss. Another nerf to Terrans and it's not even fucking worth spending such amounts of time on this race when you can just 1 A when playing the Toss race. I can't see Terran getting a buff just because of the pure fact we would see more "QQ Terran imba" in these threads then we've ever seen. I guess it's best just to leave it with Terrans knowing they are playing against a 1 A ticking time bomb. @Lorch, it's very easy to say "wood league" doesn't matter. Enjoy your easy P v T wins champ, well deserved wins those are. +1 User was warned for this post | ||
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PlaGuE_R
France1151 Posts
Fix the game, remove the colossus. FUCK THE COLOSSUS! i hate that skill-less, ugly, gimmicky, shit unit that only takes 1-A to use. and I say that as a random player who used to be 100% protoss. seriously, that unit is awful. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On December 10 2011 22:24 Lorch wrote: So I'm just making sure I get you right here. You really believe that players subjective feel about the matchup (especially when asking random players that could be in any league) matters more than pure statistic winrates on pro level? Problem is that you dont understand how to apply statisctics. If someone would make a survey using only top level play, and analyzing games where both players got into late game equal terran would be much below 50% vs toss (after patch). At master level and below stats would probably be below 40%. Prepatch late game tvp at top level was probably around 50%. Master level probab 45-50%. Diamond prob. around 40%. And yes I just pulled numbers out of my ass, but they are probably a better estimate than the kind of misusing of statistics that you are using. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On December 10 2011 22:43 mavsfan0041 wrote: You quit starcraft because of the EMP nerf? Ouch... Doesn't that seem a bit harsh? Have a bit more faith in Blizz. They'll get it right eventually! Prob with tvp was that it was an extremely boring matchup (bio is just boring). And now it just ogt imbalanced as well. Rather use my time on something else. If a good patch hits, i will consider starting to play again. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:26 Salteador Neo wrote: You just didn't compare a barracks unit with the useless overpriced T3 capital ship xD You're implying Ghosts are like T1 or something. Barracks -> Tech Lab -> Ghost Academy. If anything they're T2. Nonetheless, the ultimatum was not for cost -- it was for a unit that beat half of the other races arsenal. That's what was provided. Ghosts may be a bit strong, but I think it's a little overreacting to say they counter EVERYTHING. | ||
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Assaulter
Lithuania324 Posts
On December 11 2011 00:27 PlaGuE_R wrote: Fix the game, remove the colossus. FUCK THE COLOSSUS! i hate that skill-less, ugly, gimmicky, shit unit that only takes 1-A to use. and I say that as a random player who used to be 100% protoss. seriously, that unit is awful. IMO uninteresting units like that should tottaly get removed, change infestor so fungal growth doesn't stop units completely, replace collosus with something else, remove marauder, also make it so broodlords aren't just a-move units | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On December 11 2011 00:32 Assaulter wrote: IMO uninteresting units like that should tottaly get removed, change infestor so fungal growth doesn't stop units completely, replace collosus with something else, remove marauder, also make it so broodlords aren't just a-move units Dont think we need to remove the collosus and mauruder. Collosus just need to be reworked compltely, and made a difficult to use optimally unit (and not a micro killer like fungal). Mauruder should be a niche unit. Imagine if mech was viable in tvp, then you could open bio expand. Do some dropping while transitioning into mech. That would be fine for me. I dont mind as well that bio heavy in tvt is an option against a mech player that doesn't play safe (perhaps he takes too many expos too heavily). And i Mean in tvz we some times see bio heavy openings. I dont mind that use of the mauruder. Just make mech more viable in tvp and the mauruder is fine IMO. | ||
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