On December 11 2011 00:21 ZorBa.G wrote: I think it's quiet disgusting to see the attitude of the current Protoss players. It's as if they think this game owes them something!
Hoenstly, I've watched many matches of Jinro where he has actually been ahead of his Toss opponent but yet still gets rofl stomped by late game Toss and other games where he has JUST come out on top.
My translation of that post from Jinro is;
Leave the fucking MU as is. Because it's already next to impossible to beat a late game toss. Another nerf to Terrans and it's not even fucking worth spending such amounts of time on this race when you can just 1 A when playing the Toss race.
I can't see Terran getting a buff just because of the pure fact we would see more "QQ Terran imba" in these threads then we've ever seen.
I guess it's best just to leave it with Terrans knowing they are playing against a 1 A ticking time bomb.
@Lorch, it's very easy to say "wood league" doesn't matter. Enjoy your easy P v T wins champ, well deserved wins those are.
+1
Fix the game, remove the colossus. FUCK THE COLOSSUS! i hate that skill-less, ugly, gimmicky, shit unit that only takes 1-A to use. and I say that as a random player who used to be 100% protoss. seriously, that unit is awful.
if you want to remove colossus you will have to remove medivac healing or nerf it quite a bit. Medivacs are why Protoss is so AoE dependant.
On December 11 2011 00:21 ZorBa.G wrote: I think it's quiet disgusting to see the attitude of the current Protoss players. It's as if they think this game owes them something!
Hoenstly, I've watched many matches of Jinro where he has actually been ahead of his Toss opponent but yet still gets rofl stomped by late game Toss and other games where he has JUST come out on top.
My translation of that post from Jinro is;
Leave the fucking MU as is. Because it's already next to impossible to beat a late game toss. Another nerf to Terrans and it's not even fucking worth spending such amounts of time on this race when you can just 1 A when playing the Toss race.
I can't see Terran getting a buff just because of the pure fact we would see more "QQ Terran imba" in these threads then we've ever seen.
I guess it's best just to leave it with Terrans knowing they are playing against a 1 A ticking time bomb.
@Lorch, it's very easy to say "wood league" doesn't matter. Enjoy your easy P v T wins champ, well deserved wins those are.
+1
Fix the game, remove the colossus. FUCK THE COLOSSUS! i hate that skill-less, ugly, gimmicky, shit unit that only takes 1-A to use. and I say that as a random player who used to be 100% protoss. seriously, that unit is awful.
if you want to remove colossus you will have to remove medivac healing or nerf it quite a bit. Medivacs are why Protoss is so AoE dependant.
Honestly, I feel the whole 1a ticking time bomb can apply to a lot in sc2, Terran, Zerg, and protoss. This is something I really miss from BW, units like lurkers,defilers,arbiters, reavers, siege tanks and mines in BW had such insane dmg and abilities they took real micro, decision making, and strategy to deal with. Anyone who just all in attacked into them got screwed. It's just too easy to get certain units out and steam roll an enemy once you get a slight lead in SC2, this applies to all races. That's my opinion at least.
Viking is not a good counter to the carrier at all so can remove that^^ The carrier will also be removed with hots so its kinda irrelevant annyway Ghost counter absolutely nothing cost for cost beside other spellcasters wich they are meant to counter
The balance in lower leagues does matter as 90% of the players are in diamond or lower, you dont realy want a game wich is balanced for only 10% of the players do you? It would be terrible for the prospects of this game if only 10% of the players would have a balanced game and am sure blizzard accountants will agree
The game is fine as it is and the patches are all ok, stop whining about balance so much (serious lol) If you not happy with your race go play another race , stop making everything so complicated When 90% of the people are playing protoss, then blizzard has a problem and then they will fix something
The problem I find this that many Terrans never realized just how powerful late game Protoss really was. Due to how strong Terran might of been early - mid game (they were winning games before it even got to the later stages of the game). Now that strength of Terran has been nerfed quiet a lot, it's much easier for a Protoss to propel themselves into the late game.
Hence, it's now starting to stick out like dog shit just how hard it is for a Terran to deal with a late game Toss. My personal view on this is, if Blizzard is going to make it that much easier for a Protoss to get themselves into the late game, they also need to consider what tools Terran can utilize in the late game...... because BIO is just not the answer.
mmmm i like the colossus, probably because they feel like a mobile sieged tank when it comes to handling, so its a siege tank with added dodge abilities for me, which i personally like, strangely enough i have never seen anyone complain about the siege tank (which is basically siege up instead of 1a). Siege tank is by the way my favorite unit xD. But seeing tank wars and then colossus wars, there is so much more micro potential in colossus vs colossus, but people just cross their fingers and kite a bit. Anyway way to buff terran, add something to the fusion core with a long research time . But i guess if people would get medivac energy they would do better in fights if they use bio. But hey we never see a yellow terran army with empty medivacs hovering over them in pvt do we. On the other hand, blue flame got nerfed when people started switching up addons on the factory and raks to get out more blue flame hellions, so maybe its quiet nice that everyone forgot about building upgrades etc.
On December 11 2011 00:21 ZorBa.G wrote: I think it's quiet disgusting to see the attitude of the current Protoss players. It's as if they think this game owes them something!
Hoenstly, I've watched many matches of Jinro where he has actually been ahead of his Toss opponent but yet still gets rofl stomped by late game Toss and other games where he has JUST come out on top.
My translation of that post from Jinro is;
Leave the fucking MU as is. Because it's already next to impossible to beat a late game toss. Another nerf to Terrans and it's not even fucking worth spending such amounts of time on this race when you can just 1 A when playing the Toss race.
I can't see Terran getting a buff just because of the pure fact we would see more "QQ Terran imba" in these threads then we've ever seen.
I guess it's best just to leave it with Terrans knowing they are playing against a 1 A ticking time bomb.
@Lorch, it's very easy to say "wood league" doesn't matter. Enjoy your easy P v T wins champ, well deserved wins those are.
+1
Fix the game, remove the colossus. FUCK THE COLOSSUS! i hate that skill-less, ugly, gimmicky, shit unit that only takes 1-A to use. and I say that as a random player who used to be 100% protoss. seriously, that unit is awful.
if you want to remove colossus you will have to remove medivac healing or nerf it quite a bit. Medivacs are why Protoss is so AoE dependant.
Honestly, I feel the whole 1a ticking time bomb can apply to a lot in sc2, Terran, Zerg, and protoss. This is something I really miss from BW, units like lurkers,defilers,arbiters, reavers, siege tanks and mines in BW had such insane dmg and abilities they took real micro, decision making, and strategy to deal with. Anyone who just all in attacked into them got screwed. It's just too easy to get certain units out and steam roll an enemy once you get a slight lead in SC2, this applies to all races. That's my opinion at least.
this is so true. excellent post, really! there's no units that can actually control space/etc , and as long as you have a lead you can easily crush your opponent's army no matter the positioning. you mostly see this in PvT. if it gets to 16+ mins, its usually one big battle, and whoever wins that battle just goes and crushes his opponent's reinforcements and base and wins. it's so dull
On December 11 2011 00:21 ZorBa.G wrote: I think it's quiet disgusting to see the attitude of the current Protoss players. It's as if they think this game owes them something!
Hoenstly, I've watched many matches of Jinro where he has actually been ahead of his Toss opponent but yet still gets rofl stomped by late game Toss and other games where he has JUST come out on top.
My translation of that post from Jinro is;
Leave the fucking MU as is. Because it's already next to impossible to beat a late game toss. Another nerf to Terrans and it's not even fucking worth spending such amounts of time on this race when you can just 1 A when playing the Toss race.
I can't see Terran getting a buff just because of the pure fact we would see more "QQ Terran imba" in these threads then we've ever seen.
I guess it's best just to leave it with Terrans knowing they are playing against a 1 A ticking time bomb.
@Lorch, it's very easy to say "wood league" doesn't matter. Enjoy your easy P v T wins champ, well deserved wins those are.
Wow, there's a Terran bonding party going on I guess. You rarely see them but now that Terran finally left their 65% edge and got into an unlucky 49% stick for once, they bond up and let everybody know it's WRONG! We had our 65% edge for only a couple of months. Now protoss is having 54% edge for a few weeks and... it's WRONG!
Honestly, I feel the whole 1a ticking time bomb can apply to a lot in sc2, Terran, Zerg, and protoss. This is something I really miss from BW, units like lurkers,defilers,arbiters, reavers, siege tanks and mines in BW had such insane dmg and abilities they took real micro, decision making, and strategy to deal with. Anyone who just all in attacked into them got screwed. It's just too easy to get certain units out and steam roll an enemy once you get a slight lead in SC2, this applies to all races. That's my opinion at least.
I have to disagree with this. I think micro is still really really important. I think SC2 has a good mix of those a-move units (which BW also had) und some tricky "micro-or-die" units such as ghosts (emp + snipe), HTs (storms + feedback), infestorts(burrow + fungal growth + infested terrans + neural parasite).
On December 11 2011 00:21 ZorBa.G wrote: I think it's quiet disgusting to see the attitude of the current Protoss players. It's as if they think this game owes them something!
Hoenstly, I've watched many matches of Jinro where he has actually been ahead of his Toss opponent but yet still gets rofl stomped by late game Toss and other games where he has JUST come out on top.
My translation of that post from Jinro is;
Leave the fucking MU as is. Because it's already next to impossible to beat a late game toss. Another nerf to Terrans and it's not even fucking worth spending such amounts of time on this race when you can just 1 A when playing the Toss race.
I can't see Terran getting a buff just because of the pure fact we would see more "QQ Terran imba" in these threads then we've ever seen.
I guess it's best just to leave it with Terrans knowing they are playing against a 1 A ticking time bomb.
@Lorch, it's very easy to say "wood league" doesn't matter. Enjoy your easy P v T wins champ, well deserved wins those are.
Wow, there's a Terran bonding party going on I guess. You rarely see them but now that Terran finally left their 65% edge and got into an unlucky 49% stick for once, they bond up and let everybody know it's WRONG! We had our 65% edge for only a couple of months. Now protoss is having 54% edge for a few weeks and... it's WRONG!
On December 10 2011 21:36 Hider wrote: FFs, who bumped this thread. So stupid. I just throught we would get a new PTR where terran would get there fully deserved buff.
and what buff would you suggest that is?
any buff to terran early game would certainly cause serious problems as terran is already capable of a ton of incredibly strong all ins.
just for kicks, i'd love it if they combined the +2 building armor/bunker upgrade into one
reaper speed to engine bay could also be nice. Im sure a couple zergs would disagree
I agree. Fixing the balance right now is really tough. Best short-term solution imo is revert EMP. TVP was never terran favored late game. If toss then would want another nerf to 1/1/1, i dont mind it.
Best long-term solution = Fix mech vs toss. However probably not gonna happen, and I dont think blizzard is gonna admit that that they made a clear mistake last patch and change emp back, so hence i quitted sc2. Its really not worth wasting time on tvp, when its so broken.
You quit starcraft because of the EMP nerf? Ouch... Doesn't that seem a bit harsh? Have a bit more faith in Blizz. They'll get it right eventually!
But likely not before hots. Terran hots units are all mech, so Blizzard is probably not going to touch mech until the expansion. Until then we're stuck with the powerful midgame-worthless lategame bio compositions.
Got Ultras? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Broodlords? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Infestors? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Overseers? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Mutas? Np, I got Ghosts. Got HTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got DTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Immortals? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Sentries? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Phoenixes? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Zealots? Np, I got Ghosts.
So until other races get a unit that counters more than half of the other races complete arsenal, you please refrain from balance whining as a Terran.
This post is really silly.
What you said can also be applied to Hight Templars and Infestors.
I really don't think this discussion has been brought on by the 45percent winratio vs toss at pro level. I'm at master and winratio vs toss is closer to 20percent. Whereas every toss I talk to tells me their best matchup is pvt
On December 11 2011 01:09 IMStyle wrote: I really don't think this discussion has been brought on by the 45percent winratio vs toss at pro level. I'm at master and winratio vs toss is closer to 20percent. Whereas every toss I talk to tells me their best matchup is pvt
My best matchup has been PvT for about 3 months now mainly because I understand where and when I can be greedy and how based on the Terran opening.
On December 11 2011 01:09 IMStyle wrote: I really don't think this discussion has been brought on by the 45percent winratio vs toss at pro level. I'm at master and winratio vs toss is closer to 20percent. Whereas every toss I talk to tells me their best matchup is pvt
when i used to play (master eu) every protoss would call me a fag and say terran is op as fuck, then proceed to rape me when i have 3/3 to their 2/1. when i noticed this happens like every 2nd game, me being 3/3 and him being behind on upgrades, bases, and getting his ht's emp'ed, he would still win by a-moving everything and then remaking everything instantly and going to kill me, i quit the game. maybe i'll start playing again playing against protoss doesn't want me to just instantly quit the game because of how incredibly dull it is. you can't do anything but 1/1/1 and MMM and attempt to do drops that get countered by warping in stuff, or just a-moving your army and then getting trapped by forcefields and stormed if you don't emp everything he has..not to mention every protoss just goes nexus first because they don't have anything to fear. Everyone just brings up GSL/some other pro tournament results in PvT and doesn't look at their own skill level winrates. which have protoss being very favored. /rant
Honestly, I feel the whole 1a ticking time bomb can apply to a lot in sc2, Terran, Zerg, and protoss. This is something I really miss from BW, units like lurkers,defilers,arbiters, reavers, siege tanks and mines in BW had such insane dmg and abilities they took real micro, decision making, and strategy to deal with. Anyone who just all in attacked into them got screwed. It's just too easy to get certain units out and steam roll an enemy once you get a slight lead in SC2, this applies to all races. That's my opinion at least.
I have to disagree with this. I think micro is still really really important. I think SC2 has a good mix of those a-move units (which BW also had) und some tricky "micro-or-die" units such as ghosts (emp + snipe), HTs (storms + feedback), infestorts(burrow + fungal growth + infested terrans + neural parasite).
I didn't say micro wasn't important. But even look at the units you mentioned, ghosts, ht's and infestors, it's really, really easy to blanket an opposing army in fungals/emps/storms in sc2 while you 1a with everything else, and just steam roll the opponent isn't it? Once you get enough econ lead to afford these units while keeping up in army it's usually an easy win. Thinking about situations like BL+infestor, colossus+storm, ghost+MMM tvp or Ghost marine tank tvz, if the opponent is behind they aren't coming back. I'm not trying to keep the "BW so much better than sc2 omg" stuff, I'm just saying that the way battles are fought needs to be changed. Hopefully in hots, all the races will get some serious space controlling units that make 1a style attacks suicide, provide a greater benefit to spreading out, being conscious of flanking, mobility, map vision and tactical decision making. For being a strategy game, the amount of viable strategies the current game play allow for, is pretty limited imo.
Honestly, I feel the whole 1a ticking time bomb can apply to a lot in sc2, Terran, Zerg, and protoss. This is something I really miss from BW, units like lurkers,defilers,arbiters, reavers, siege tanks and mines in BW had such insane dmg and abilities they took real micro, decision making, and strategy to deal with. Anyone who just all in attacked into them got screwed. It's just too easy to get certain units out and steam roll an enemy once you get a slight lead in SC2, this applies to all races. That's my opinion at least.
I have to disagree with this. I think micro is still really really important. I think SC2 has a good mix of those a-move units (which BW also had) und some tricky "micro-or-die" units such as ghosts (emp + snipe), HTs (storms + feedback), infestorts(burrow + fungal growth + infested terrans + neural parasite).
I don't think we have even seen players scratch the surface of sc2 micro yet. Watching fOrGG play in his GSL matches seems like a decent example. His micro seems to be some of the best I've seen already. Unit control seems to be a big place people haven't explored. We still see protoss bunch up their sentries and HTs. Countless times I've seen terran simply not run from storms, etc. Micro is only going to get better with time. In 10 years I'm sure it will be just as crazy as BW is now.
On the colossus topic. I haven't been able to really use colossus in any match up lately. I have terrans/zergs just blindly make vikings and corruptors without scouting. I guess that comes from there overwhelming amount of use. But personally when I was still going colossus tech it would get hard countered by 193 vikings and it would be GG. That's why I had to stop making them. Seems like like such an easy unit to counter. You need 4+ colossi to cover your ground army while they try to focus fire vikings/corruptors. While your trying to do that marauders are eating through your stalkers at an insane rate.
Although I find archon/chargelot is the best answer for PvT now.
On December 11 2011 00:53 ZorBa.G wrote: For what it's worth;
The problem I find this that many Terrans never realized just how powerful late game Protoss really was. Due to how strong Terran might of been early - mid game (they were winning games before it even got to the later stages of the game). Now that strength of Terran has been nerfed quiet a lot, it's much easier for a Protoss to propel themselves into the late game.
Hence, it's now starting to stick out like dog shit just how hard it is for a Terran to deal with a late game Toss. My personal view on this is, if Blizzard is going to make it that much easier for a Protoss to get themselves into the late game, they also need to consider what tools Terran can utilize in the late game...... because BIO is just not the answer.
On December 10 2011 21:36 Hider wrote: FFs, who bumped this thread. So stupid. I just throught we would get a new PTR where terran would get there fully deserved buff.
and what buff would you suggest that is?
any buff to terran early game would certainly cause serious problems as terran is already capable of a ton of incredibly strong all ins.
just for kicks, i'd love it if they combined the +2 building armor/bunker upgrade into one
reaper speed to engine bay could also be nice. Im sure a couple zergs would disagree
I agree. Fixing the balance right now is really tough. Best short-term solution imo is revert EMP. TVP was never terran favored late game. If toss then would want another nerf to 1/1/1, i dont mind it.
Best long-term solution = Fix mech vs toss. However probably not gonna happen, and I dont think blizzard is gonna admit that that they made a clear mistake last patch and change emp back, so hence i quitted sc2. Its really not worth wasting time on tvp, when its so broken.
You quit starcraft because of the EMP nerf? Ouch... Doesn't that seem a bit harsh? Have a bit more faith in Blizz. They'll get it right eventually!
But likely not before hots. Terran hots units are all mech, so Blizzard is probably not going to touch mech until the expansion. Until then we're stuck with the powerful midgame-worthless lategame bio compositions.
Got Ultras? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Broodlords? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Infestors? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Overseers? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Mutas? Np, I got Ghosts. Got HTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got DTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Immortals? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Sentries? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Phoenixes? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Zealots? Np, I got Ghosts.
So until other races get a unit that counters more than half of the other races complete arsenal, you please refrain from balance whining as a Terran.
List of terran units that the carrier counters: Marauder, reaper, ghost, helion, siege tank, thor, medvac, raven, banshee.
List of terran units the counters the carrier: Marine, viking, battlecruiser.
List of zerg units that the carrier counters: Queen, zergling, baneling, roach, ultralisk, mutalisk, broodlord.
List of zerg units that counter the carrier: Hydralisk, corruptor.
Protoss has an unit that counters more than half of the other races complete arsenal. You happy?
You just didn't compare a barracks unit with the useless overpriced T3 capital ship xD
Nonetheless, the ultimatum was not for cost -- it was for a unit that beat half of the other races arsenal. That's what was provided. Ghosts may be a bit strong, but I think it's a little overreacting to say they counter EVERYTHING.
Still just incredibly stupid and pointless to use the carrier as a counterexample for ghost and everyone knows it. HT is of course a better example.
Honestly, I feel the whole 1a ticking time bomb can apply to a lot in sc2, Terran, Zerg, and protoss. This is something I really miss from BW, units like lurkers,defilers,arbiters, reavers, siege tanks and mines in BW had such insane dmg and abilities they took real micro, decision making, and strategy to deal with. Anyone who just all in attacked into them got screwed. It's just too easy to get certain units out and steam roll an enemy once you get a slight lead in SC2, this applies to all races. That's my opinion at least.
I have to disagree with this. I think micro is still really really important. I think SC2 has a good mix of those a-move units (which BW also had) und some tricky "micro-or-die" units such as ghosts (emp + snipe), HTs (storms + feedback), infestorts(burrow + fungal growth + infested terrans + neural parasite).
I love it when people who never played BW talk about how BW was. What you are talking about is fighting units vs spellcasters. What he is talking about is how the fighting units, even the "a-move" units as you call them (what the fuck? of course there's "a-move" units in BW...it's the attack-command lol.) are much much harder to micro. A BW pro could beat me even if I had a vastly superior army by outmicroing me, in SC2 thats just not gonna happen. Of course in SC2 micro is still very important, especially since SC2 often ends up having one big battle of two pretty even armies that decides the game, so whoever wins that with better micro wins the game. And SC2 pros still dont micro as well as they could. But you cant outplay someone with your micro like you could in BW, if you give me a protoss deathball with colossi archon HT sentry stalker chargelot, then I'm gonna be able to beat any pros that have a clearly inferior army. In BW if you give me a massive army and told me to attack a BW pro i would just fall apart and get annihilated cause theres so much stuff to do and im not smart and fast enough.
On December 10 2011 21:36 Hider wrote: FFs, who bumped this thread. So stupid. I just throught we would get a new PTR where terran would get there fully deserved buff.
and what buff would you suggest that is?
any buff to terran early game would certainly cause serious problems as terran is already capable of a ton of incredibly strong all ins.
just for kicks, i'd love it if they combined the +2 building armor/bunker upgrade into one
reaper speed to engine bay could also be nice. Im sure a couple zergs would disagree
I agree. Fixing the balance right now is really tough. Best short-term solution imo is revert EMP. TVP was never terran favored late game. If toss then would want another nerf to 1/1/1, i dont mind it.
Best long-term solution = Fix mech vs toss. However probably not gonna happen, and I dont think blizzard is gonna admit that that they made a clear mistake last patch and change emp back, so hence i quitted sc2. Its really not worth wasting time on tvp, when its so broken.
You quit starcraft because of the EMP nerf? Ouch... Doesn't that seem a bit harsh? Have a bit more faith in Blizz. They'll get it right eventually!
But likely not before hots. Terran hots units are all mech, so Blizzard is probably not going to touch mech until the expansion. Until then we're stuck with the powerful midgame-worthless lategame bio compositions.
Got Ultras? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Broodlords? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Infestors? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Overseers? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Mutas? Np, I got Ghosts. Got HTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got DTs? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Immortals? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Sentries? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Phoenixes? Np, I got Ghosts. Got Zealots? Np, I got Ghosts.
So until other races get a unit that counters more than half of the other races complete arsenal, you please refrain from balance whining as a Terran.
This post is really silly.
What you said can also be applied to Hight Templars and Infestors.
Zergs crying about snipe is laughable, it takes 12 snipes to kill 1 ultralist, I would not call that a "counter".
LOL.Infestor counter pretty much almost all units?Are you dumb?Anyways, Ghost is a bit OP cuz of his snipe ability.Ghost itself counter BLs + Infestor.Blizzard will nerf their snipe ability by either increasing its energy cost or reducing its damage.
I am fine with its EMP ability though.We just have to spread our army better.
EPT
. But i guess if people would get medivac energy they would do better in fights if they use bio. But hey we never see a yellow terran army with empty medivacs hovering over them in pvt do we.
