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I don't get why people want this removed...
The only cheeses that totally depend on this are low-to-high cannon rushes (which are, honestly, easier to defend than the boss variants because they take time to creep up) and 4 gate in PvP (which is a thoroughly dead horse). Neither of those are a problem in the current game.
The other thing it's needed for is gate+stargate pressure tactics, particularly in PvZ against early thirds (which is legitimate and necessary pressure) and early PvT VR builds (which can be cheese or pressure, depending). Those timings would survive a pylon nerf, but that doesn't justify it. High-ground warp ins are an important part of the threat spectrum, and they sure aren't broken. For stuff using random proxy pylons at other points... well... if you let a pylon go up in vision/shooting distance of your base without an army defending it, that's pretty much your problem.
It kind of feels like everyone pushing for this just want their lives made easier. Personally, hey, I'd like roaches to go back to 3 range because I suck at holding the stephano max. If Blizzard had suggested it at some stage I'd probably be jumping at the chance, but that doesn't make my position justified.
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On June 12 2012 09:33 -Kaiser- wrote:
Requoting this for the necro, if only because i's something that I pray Mr. Browder sees.
Quoted from user Reborn8u
Furthermore, the things that were buffed phoenix, archons, observers, immortals, warp prisms, are not core parts of protoss play,
Necro indeed...
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It's about time the abuse Protoss do with cheese and rushes are fixed. I just recently played a game where I spotted the proxy stargate, killed the pylon, only to find out he made a pylon on the lower ground corner where I couldn't see it. Shit like that is what this stuff is really used for.
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Well this sounds logic to me. But then again that is me. And I don´t think this will have a big impact anyways. It´s a small thing.
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On June 12 2012 09:41 EienShinwa wrote:
It's about time the abuse Protoss do with cheese and rushes are fixed. I just recently played a game where I spotted the proxy stargate, killed the pylon, only to find out he made a pylon on the lower ground corner where I couldn't see it. Shit like that is what this stuff is really used for.
You didn't notice that the stargate didn't unpower? Unless of course the pylon was being made. Can I ask why you didn't bother killing the stargate? Was it because he was attacking/pressuring you - so much you couldn't leave a single unit to deal with it?
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pinball777
United States134 Posts
On June 12 2012 09:41 EienShinwa wrote:
It's about time the abuse Protoss do with cheese and rushes are fixed. I just recently played a game where I spotted the proxy stargate, killed the pylon, only to find out he made a pylon on the lower ground corner where I couldn't see it. Shit like that is what this stuff is really used for.
You do realized you can see if a building is unpowered right?
I really hope Blizzard reconsiders this pylon issue. It should be able to warp up and makes the game more interesting and fairer for toss, unless its in pvp.
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Looking forward to this change. It will reduce low-to-high ground proxygates on several laddermaps. PvP is so dull when people roll a dice and hopes to freewin blindly (ie. I win 9/10 times against it when scouted reasonably early and lose 9/10 if not).
a shame losing warpins though, but maybe that will give further incentive for warp prism play (arguably requires more skill than pylon +vision).
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On June 12 2012 10:28 JKM wrote:
Looking forward to this change. It will reduce low-to-high ground proxygates on several laddermaps. PvP is so dull when people roll a dice and hopes to freewin blindly (ie. I win 9/10 times against it when scouted reasonably early and lose 9/10 if not).
a shame losing warpins though, but maybe that will give further incentive for warp prism play (arguably requires more skill than pylon +vision).
Your fault for not scouting. I hope they revert this change. You act like pvp is the only time people to decide to "dice roll" when it's not. There's many many kinds of things that are dicerolls for every race. If my opponent is stupid enough to not scout around his base CONSISTENTLY then yes, I should be able to abuse that.
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On June 12 2012 10:36 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:28 JKM wrote:
Looking forward to this change. It will reduce low-to-high ground proxygates on several laddermaps. PvP is so dull when people roll a dice and hopes to freewin blindly (ie. I win 9/10 times against it when scouted reasonably early and lose 9/10 if not).
a shame losing warpins though, but maybe that will give further incentive for warp prism play (arguably requires more skill than pylon +vision). Your fault for not scouting. I hope they revert this change. You act like pvp is the only time people to decide to "dice roll" when it's not. There's many many kinds of things that are dicerolls for every race. If my opponent is stupid enough to not scout around his base CONSISTENTLY then yes, I should be able to abuse that.
Going by your logic you should be quick enough to put a pylon in his main. Deal with it.
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On June 12 2012 08:39 Areon wrote:
Blizz needs to stop nerfing plyons ffs. Give range back?
More importantly why in God's name did those buffoons not mention this publicly anywhere at any point in time? It's been countless months since HotS was shown at Blizzcon and never once was this elaborated upon in a list of changes. Blizzard, what the hell? Stop doing this to us.
You do realize this thread is almost 9 months old which is when this change was made public right? Do some research before you make retarded posts.
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On June 12 2012 09:41 EienShinwa wrote:
It's about time the abuse Protoss do with cheese and rushes are fixed. I just recently played a game where I spotted the proxy stargate, killed the pylon, only to find out he made a pylon on the lower ground corner where I couldn't see it. Shit like that is what this stuff is really used for.
If you killed a pylon on the highground, and missed the pylon that's in power range on the low ground, what would have stopped him from just placing another pylon on the high ground? You'd miss it either way.
Besides, if the gate doesn't power down immediately, you uhh, kinda have to look for another pylon. It's a dead giveaway.
This change won't stop you from getting proxy gated. This will only really stop cannon rushing and cute pylon warp in plays that are pretty rare as it is. It just removes interesting tactics in favour of stopping something that's been a part of every RTS that has defensive buildings (the cannon rush). I think it's entirely uneeded and I hope dearly that it gets removed before it hits retail.
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On June 12 2012 10:36 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:28 JKM wrote:
Looking forward to this change. It will reduce low-to-high ground proxygates on several laddermaps. PvP is so dull when people roll a dice and hopes to freewin blindly (ie. I win 9/10 times against it when scouted reasonably early and lose 9/10 if not).
a shame losing warpins though, but maybe that will give further incentive for warp prism play (arguably requires more skill than pylon +vision). Your fault for not scouting. I hope they revert this change. You act like pvp is the only time people to decide to "dice roll" when it's not. There's many many kinds of things that are dicerolls for every race. If my opponent is stupid enough to not scout around his base CONSISTENTLY then yes, I should be able to abuse that.
I dislike dicerolling in general, but proxybuildings above anything, since they are most often clear win/lose depending on scouting.
I think I was rather clear in that I actually scout around and I think I catch it reasonably early 80-90% of the time, so its most often a freewin when someone tries to pull it on me, but that doesnt make it less of a time-waster. There is absolutely no fun or joy to be gotten from a PvP involving proxygates. Also some maps have an obnoxious amount of potential proxyspots, so actually scouting all of those (in time) can be hard and removing all the spots involving a low ground pylon would help alleviate that, without removing proxygates entirely from the repetoire of potential "strategies".
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On June 12 2012 10:50 JKM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:36 Infernal_dream wrote:On June 12 2012 10:28 JKM wrote:
Looking forward to this change. It will reduce low-to-high ground proxygates on several laddermaps. PvP is so dull when people roll a dice and hopes to freewin blindly (ie. I win 9/10 times against it when scouted reasonably early and lose 9/10 if not).
a shame losing warpins though, but maybe that will give further incentive for warp prism play (arguably requires more skill than pylon +vision). Your fault for not scouting. I hope they revert this change. You act like pvp is the only time people to decide to "dice roll" when it's not. There's many many kinds of things that are dicerolls for every race. If my opponent is stupid enough to not scout around his base CONSISTENTLY then yes, I should be able to abuse that. I dislike dicerolling in general, but proxybuildings above anything, since they are most often clear win/lose depending on scouting. I think I was rather clear in that I actually scout around and I think I catch it reasonably early 80-90% of the time, so its most often a freewin when someone tries to pull it on me, but that doesnt make it less of a time-waster. There is absolutely no fun or joy to be gotten from a PvP involving proxygates. Also some maps have an obnoxious amount of potential proxyspots, so actually scouting all of those (in time) can be hard and removing all the spots involving a low ground pylon would help alleviate that, without removing proxygates entirely from the repetoire of potential "strategies".
Oh come now, it's not like every PvP is a proxy. I bet not even 10% of your games are proxies! (Well, maybe they are if you're very unlucky...)
I don't think you can justify removing that just to stop proxies. Stopping warpins, which for the most part, aren't really a problem to counter, isn't really something I'd like to see removed from the game. And I'm sure other people wouldn't like it very much either!
And try not to refer to them as "strategies". Just say cheese if you mean it, or say strategies since that is what they are!
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yeah its sad, now protos can only warp in like directly in front of the enemies base instead of directly IN their base.....poor toss players.
Its funny how toss players can even complain about this since the warp gate ist a totally retarded unbalanced kind of bullshit anyway......
in EVERY single RTS game EVER there is the, so called "defender advantage" which gets allready nullified by warpage.
Toss can allready do an incredible insane amout of different 1 base hardcorecheeses which are all together unbelievably hard to defend (at least for terran), if some of them get shut or slowed down by such a change, this is just good work from blizzard.......
and the open poster is imho just trying to find argues to make this change look bad, so that he ca continue his highground DT warpin out of 1 base to punis every terra who does not blindly save up like 5 scans and or place 15 turrets everywhere in his base....srlsy this change is just absolutely NEEDED
i know i ll get a "user was warned fo this post" or whatever. but its just true, and thats why blizzard is making this change....
and srsly, @OP ur argue maybe matters in 1 out of 100 games, and even there is just such a minor change at all! While it is a big change in like 25 % of the low leven 1 base toss cheese games in bronze to diamond leage
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 12 2012 10:01 humanimal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 09:41 EienShinwa wrote:
It's about time the abuse Protoss do with cheese and rushes are fixed. I just recently played a game where I spotted the proxy stargate, killed the pylon, only to find out he made a pylon on the lower ground corner where I couldn't see it. Shit like that is what this stuff is really used for. You didn't notice that the stargate didn't unpower? Unless of course the pylon was being made. Can I ask why you didn't bother killing the stargate? Was it because he was attacking/pressuring you - so much you couldn't leave a single unit to deal with it?
I guess it was a build order loss for me because I went 1 rax fe and he chose to allin. I sent an scv to scout my side of the map because he built no more buildings/nexus. Saw the pylon+stargate, sent 3 marines at it. Killed the probe and pylon then his stalker came and killed all my marines. He apparently sent another probe with his stalker and built it on the low ground. As my final marine died from his stalker his pylon finished building and started powering the stargate again. There was nothing I could do to stop that, and if I didn't see it I would have been fucked regardless.
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On June 12 2012 11:12 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:01 humanimal wrote:On June 12 2012 09:41 EienShinwa wrote:
It's about time the abuse Protoss do with cheese and rushes are fixed. I just recently played a game where I spotted the proxy stargate, killed the pylon, only to find out he made a pylon on the lower ground corner where I couldn't see it. Shit like that is what this stuff is really used for. You didn't notice that the stargate didn't unpower? Unless of course the pylon was being made. Can I ask why you didn't bother killing the stargate? Was it because he was attacking/pressuring you - so much you couldn't leave a single unit to deal with it? I guess it was a build order loss for me because I went 1 rax fe and he chose to allin. I sent an scv to scout my side of the map because he built no more buildings/nexus. Saw the pylon+stargate, sent 3 marines at it. Killed the probe and pylon then his stalker came and killed all my marines. He apparently sent another probe with his stalker and built it on the low ground. As my final marine died from his stalker his pylon finished building and started powering the stargate again. There was nothing I could do to stop that, and if I didn't see it I would have been fucked regardless.
That sounds like a solid response, but you didn't have any more units to dedicate to it after he killed your 3 marines? A proxied stargate is quite the investment and I don't think it was a safe assumption to think that by killing the pylon, you had stopped the cheese. Props to you for scouting and stopping the first pylon, but I think you made the wrong choice not having made sure it was completely over - aka cutting a corner.
On topic, does anyone even know if this change is staying in? I really want to know what blizzard is trying to fix with this decision - is it cannon rushes, 4 gate PvP, or something else? All these pylon/vision changes seem to be trying to attack the warpgate mechanic if anything. Cool idea, but maybe the warpgate just doesn't fit in. More balance around bad design IMO.
On June 12 2012 11:08 uzushould wrote:
yeah its sad, now protos can only warp in like directly in front of the enemies base instead of directly IN their base.....poor toss players.
Its funny how toss players can even complain about this since the warp gate ist a totally retarded unbalanced kind of bullshit anyway......
in EVERY single RTS game EVER there is the, so called "defender advantage" which gets allready nullified by warpage.
Toss can allready do an incredible insane amout of different 1 base hardcorecheeses which are all together unbelievably hard to defend (at least for terran), if some of them get shut or slowed down by such a change, this is just good work from blizzard.......
and the open poster is imho just trying to find argues to make this change look bad, so that he ca continue his highground DT warpin out of 1 base to punis every terra who does not blindly save up like 5 scans and or place 15 turrets everywhere in his base....srlsy this change is just absolutely NEEDED
i know i ll get a "user was warned fo this post" or whatever. but its just true, and thats why blizzard is making this change....
and srsly, @OP ur argue maybe matters in 1 out of 100 games, and even there is just such a minor change at all! While it is a big change in like 25 % of the low leven 1 base toss cheese games in bronze to diamond leage
lol sounds like a lot of rage at you failing to compensate for your own shortcomings like scouting properly.
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So... what's the verdict on this now? Can you still warp on the high-ground?
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On June 12 2012 11:29 humanimal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 11:12 EienShinwa wrote:On June 12 2012 10:01 humanimal wrote:On June 12 2012 09:41 EienShinwa wrote:
It's about time the abuse Protoss do with cheese and rushes are fixed. I just recently played a game where I spotted the proxy stargate, killed the pylon, only to find out he made a pylon on the lower ground corner where I couldn't see it. Shit like that is what this stuff is really used for. You didn't notice that the stargate didn't unpower? Unless of course the pylon was being made. Can I ask why you didn't bother killing the stargate? Was it because he was attacking/pressuring you - so much you couldn't leave a single unit to deal with it? I guess it was a build order loss for me because I went 1 rax fe and he chose to allin. I sent an scv to scout my side of the map because he built no more buildings/nexus. Saw the pylon+stargate, sent 3 marines at it. Killed the probe and pylon then his stalker came and killed all my marines. He apparently sent another probe with his stalker and built it on the low ground. As my final marine died from his stalker his pylon finished building and started powering the stargate again. There was nothing I could do to stop that, and if I didn't see it I would have been fucked regardless. That sounds like a solid response, but you didn't have any more units to dedicate to it after he killed your 3 marines? A proxied stargate is quite the investment and I don't think it was a safe assumption to think that by killing the pylon, you had stopped the cheese. Props to you for scouting and stopping the first pylon, but I think you made the wrong choice not having made sure it was completely over - aka cutting a corner.
He had his stalkers there near the stargate.. Of course I was going to go finish off the stargate once I got enough units, but this was an allin, all I had were a couple marines 4-5 and one marauder, while he had 2 or 3 gateways if i remember correctly and 2 stalkers out. His stalkers were guarding the stargate. Then he chrono-ed the voidrays and at that point I couldn't keep up with the production.
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Great change. Makes toss cheese require a bit more skill.
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It is a really small change, and, assuming blizzard will eventually balance the game with respect to either case, it is a matter of preference and your personal vision for the style in which Starcraft 2 is played. The game's style will change slightly with the expansion. The debates do little. It's not about WoL; If they felt it were an imbalance in WoL, then it probably would've already been patched.
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