In HOTS, low pylons no longer power high ground - Page 39

On June 12 2012 08:23 WHyTePoWeR wrote:
it completely screws over some viable strategies like the 4gate +1 void ray warp into main thing

On June 12 2012 08:25 Shantastic wrote:
You can still cannon rush, but it'll be harder. You'll have to build a pylon on the high ground first under the protection of your cannons on the low ground.

This is a stupid change IMO. The mechanics of low pylon + high-ground vision warp-ins made for much more interesting early-game, especially in PvP, where defending the ramp was so key to holding the attack.

On June 12 2012 07:38 Dontkillme wrote:
Yay no more cannon rushes :D Or cheesy warping onto high grounds. About time.

On June 12 2012 08:25 Shantastic wrote:
You can still cannon rush, but it'll be harder. You'll have to build a pylon on the high ground first under the protection of your cannons on the low ground.

This is a stupid change IMO. The mechanics of low pylon + high-ground vision warp-ins made for much more interesting early-game, especially in PvP, where defending the ramp was so key to holding the attack.

On June 12 2012 08:38 Roarer wrote:


Cannon rush ? .... is that what you care about = =?

In a serious note .... do you guys think it would be a good idea to allow pylon to extend its power range to high ground through an upgrade later in the game ? It would make early timing and cheese easier to manage but allow the same amount of strategic choices in mid to late game .

On June 12 2012 09:33 -Kaiser- wrote:
Requoting this for the necro, if only because i's something that I pray Mr. Browder sees.

Quoted from user Reborn8u

"There are some things that I think need to be put in perspective as far as protoss in general. I see so many threads about protoss and I think a lot of people just don't "get it". Hopefully, after reading this you won't be thinking that I don't "get it".

Protoss has been surviving in competitive play through the use of gimmicky tactics. Things like 4 gates, nexus cancels, air play, 1 or 2 base all ins, turtling for the deathball, dt's, blink rushes, cannon rushes. I'm not going to talk about right or wrong in terms of these strategies, that depends on your philosophy on how the game "should" be played. I think options like this should be available but they should supplement strong core play. Which would probably be the general consensus. However, I would seriously doubt there ever would have been a protoss GSL champion (MC) if these gimmicks didn't exist and protoss had to rely on standard protoss play with the state it has been in.

I am of the opinion that these types of plays are so wide spread because playing standard as protoss is weaker than using gimmicks. One of the results of this was many people calling protoss overpowered because many of these gimmicky plays require a pretty specific response to stop. Thus, many of these things have been nerfed into the ground, while some of things that deal with them received buffs (roach range and infestors come to mind). Warp, blink, voidrays, forge build time, zealot build time, pylon radius, all of these things received substantial nerfs over the last year. Furthermore, the things that were buffed phoenix, archons, observers, immortals, warp prisms, are not core parts of protoss play, and don't significantly affect the early game. Which is why I stated that I feel gimmicks are stronger than standard play for protoss, a diligent zerg or terran can scout and respond and simply put the protoss far behind by delaying protoss from even taking his own natural on almost every map, by directly doing damage, or shutting down protoss gimmicks, because the build order protoss chose was scouted.

While PvZ seems to be a back and forth in win rates, mostly because of the metagame and some patching. PvT and PvP have been altered a lot as a direct of result from patches not metagame, at least much more so than pvz. The problem protoss as a race faces now is that with so many of their gimicks nerfed, and standard expansionist play being as delicate as it is, protoss are left with very little to rely on.

In PvT Protoss play seems stagnant, predictable, and it's faster and much cheaper for terran to counter protoss AOE than it is for protoss to produce it. Unfortunately, once terran starts producing medevacs, protoss is very weak agaisnt MMM without significant AOE damage available. The only real change lately has been more ghost usage, and more prism play but they haven't grossly changed the general play or altered the win rates. (now protoss's are making a warp prism with their 4 gate.....lol)

PvP is actually in turmoil because of all the changes to 4 gating. Really though, the 4 gate has been replaced by 3 gate robo, and the rule of "he who expands, dies" still applies to PvP in almost every pro match I've seen since that last patch. Truthfully though, I don't expect much diversity from mirror matches, and I'm pretty happy with it's current state except the fact that it is so 1 base focused.

Now most of what I've stated above is my opinion, but I'd like to think it is of a decently well formed opinion. The thing that really bothers me about them removing the pylon cliff warp in, is the same thing that bothers me about the new protoss units in hots. It's just more gimmicks, and they will be most likely be nerfed, just like these pylons. What protoss needs is a strong core. Protoss's core is the gateway, and the units from the gateway need some love.

Protoss needs to be balanced away from gimmicks and towards safe standard macro play. Taking away their gimmicks while not strengthening their core is what has led to protoss's current weaknesses in pro play. This is what protoss should be about, not blink stalkers that can't stand and fight, dragoons that put fear into people and are strong enough to walk where they want except against well prepared defenses or massed counters (like lings). Not warp ins all over the map to defeat someone who has weaker multitask or took many bases, macro and positioning to defeat someone who can't macro as well or isn't as tactically sound in battle. Protoss doesn't want to have to replicate other races units, protoss wants thier own flexible and cost effective units. Protoss don't want a-move colossus with stupid range and dmg, they want shuttle/reaver, which in a pro's hands can bring out oooo's and ahhhh's from an audience because of the skill and decision making involved in manipulating them. Protoss doesn't want to shut down mining for 45 seconds, they want to do what terran and zerg does, murder workers.

If they want to take away cliff warp in then fine, but for the love of starcraft protoss shouldn't be about gimmicks, it should be a strong mobile army of core units with good upgrades that zerg and terran fear an unfavorable engagement with, from the early game to the late game. An army that can be defeated by good caster usage, good positioning and better macro, not by an A move with more cost effective units and hard counters. Protoss should not be beaten by gimping protoss's economy and stopping any retaliation, 7 minutes into the game because the protoss's build got scouted. Protoss should be beaten by better decision making and better macro.

Sorry for the long rant, but this is the general way I feel about protoss. I've been playing rts's and starcraft a long time, and watching pro play for a long time. I honestly feel like Dustin Browder just doesn't "get it". Maybe I am just a dinosaur with outdated views and I'm the one who doesn't get it. But it saddens me to see such a beautiful race with such a proud history loose it's identity and be treated so unfairly. "

On June 12 2012 08:28 Reborn8u wrote:
Try to realize that the Buffs protoss has received weren't huge ones (other than the immortal buff) but the changes to phoenix haven't been very helpful and the obs changes were necessary because protoss has serious early game scouting issues. Prisms got a hp buff, which was needed as they were a joke before that and way to risky to be reliable. The upgrade buff didn't really change much. A while ago, as protoss you basically scouted through aggression, you could poke early and get an idea of what was going on and possibly do some dmg. Now you can't even leave your base because there is no way to have an army or mobility advantage in the early game.

The nerfs protoss has received have been brutal. It's core mechanics have been nerfed hard. Nerfing warp gate research (several times iirc) is comparable to nerfing larva inject. Nerfing pylon radius is the equivalent of nerfing creep spread. Nerfing forge build time would be like nerfing spine crawlers, nerfing the zealot build time would be like nerfing lings, removing the amulet would be the same as removing the infestor's pathogen glands. (terran has also had some of their mechanics kicked in the nuts as well, but not to the degree protoss has) What this has led to is protoss being impotent in the early/mid game. Nerfing core units and buildings like this has a huge amount of trickle down affects on how the rest of the game plays out. When you nerf ALL of a races earliest units and structures, you nerf everything that happens after that. The race is just not fun to play anymore, your only safe macro option is to turtle and hope you can take a 3rd before nonstop aggression hits you. The only way you can harass is if your opponent is incompetent both in map vision and scouting. If zergs got nerfs like these, there would be an uproar.

I know I'm posting a huge balance whine here (I'm sorry), but I really miss the old days of being able to punish zerg who are greedy in the early game. Now absolute greed is almost standard and there is almost nothing I can do about it until I have 6+ warpgates in play and zergs know it. It is just not a fun race to play anymore imo. There are so few options or interesting games. Zergs used to fear early toss aggression, now they can play the matchup 10 different ways, cut a lot of corners, and have NO fear of early protoss aggression. Often zergs are the ones being aggressive all game long while maintaining an economy/tech advantage. Playing for a 2 base all in or turtling for a 3 base in is horrible. I watch a lot of pro streams and that's really ALL they EVER do.

What protoss needs is an early game army that can actually be a threat, they need a better way to scout BEFORE zerg has 70 drones and protoss needs to have the option to have an army advantage against someone who makes 2 lings until they've saturated 3 bases. I'd love to see things like shield batteries, dragoons, reavers, from BW be put into hots. Then protoss would have to be taken seriously in every stage of the game. I'm one sad zealot at the state of things right now. This is just one more nerf to a core mechanic of protoss.