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On November 27 2011 11:47 Fig wrote:
If this goes through it would plain and simple make the game less dynamic. Why take out such an interesting (and unexplored) aspect of the race? PvP is already fine, and the ability to warp onto the high ground just adds another cool dimension to the game. And especially since they seem to think protoss needs more cute harass, I don't see why they would take out one of the only options protoss has to harass, and a rather cute one at that.
I agree...I LOVE it when players like MC and HerO go stargate with zealot charge on maps like tal'darim and use the ledge to get into the main and use pheonix / vr for sight.
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The change is good. Scouting and scrubiness aside this is the final nail in the coffin of the old 4gate wars. This is only a good thing as it will encourage more greedy builds (either tech or economically greedy). You still have the ability to to pressure with a quick warp prism or observers with blink. Overall this will make play much more sophisticated as it gives protoss back their defenders advantage in pvp.
Good job blizzard.
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Warpgate tech is and has always been the issue.
Thing is its a cool idea, but it shouldnt be mixed with pylon energy... it should only be usable in the energy provided by warp prisms.
Sure it sounds like a HUGE nerf, and it lots of way it is... but if you really think about it if this step is made then it would be easier to balance protoss. Why you guys think PvP doesnt not go very different from 4 gate, 2 gate robo, blink, etc. its because this tech removes a huge part of strategy that is defenders advantage... it goes even deeper it can help a toss army remax at a zerg like speed (at least on gateway units).
Pylon nerf... guess it helps, but the main issue is and will always be WARPGATE tech. it just shouldnt exist in its current form.
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the game won't be balanceable until this is removed
being able to defend your choke so easily is by far one of the core reasons that starcraft is the only rts worth talking about
the warp in mechanic is sketchy enough, but the high ground warp-ups on tier 1 are just too much
just because it's cool, doesn't necessarily mean its good for the game
being able to directly infiltrate a main should require some tech investment
when you hear old TL veterans talk about how sc2 is a lot more volatile than bw was, this is one of the reasons why
when the line between a win and a loss comes down to whether or not you can get vision of a spot for a split second, there's going to be a lot less consistency in the game's result
for example take oz vs mma on belshir, where oz 4gated
if oz and mma played with the exact same builds 40 games in a row, it wouldn't have even gone 30-10, probably close to 20-20
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On November 27 2011 11:44 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 10:43 Seeker wrote:On November 27 2011 10:40 BlueBoxSC wrote:
Good. This needed to happen, it made XvP stupid.
Then again, Protoss shouldn't have the warp mechanic at all. :/ Ehhhhh...... I wouldn't say they shouldn't have it at all. Protoss are always at a huge disadvantage because their pylons power every building (excluding the nexus). Therefore, I don't mind the warpgate ability since it makes sense that the pylon that powers everything should have some sort of special ability to it since once it goes down the buildings around it become useless. I do however, am so glad that they're getting rid of this low ground pylon warp in high ground ability. It's super annoying........ No, warp-in is just bad. It allows Protoss to get away with being out of position, allows them to circumvent contains and counterattack in ways that Zerg and Terran could never dream of, greatly mitigates defender's advantage, and just allows for a retarded level of being everywhere at once in general. There's a reason PvX tends to be the weirdest, most unstable, and generally bad matchup in the game. The design of the race is flawed to the core.
agreed. Warp needs to be a late game upgrade (at its current function) or it needs to be a choice in the early game (warpgates slower at making units than gateways, possibly) or can only warp in at warp prisms.
point is, they keep fixing the effects of a badly implemented mechanic instead of fixing the mechanic itself.
reducing pylon range, not allowing high ground warpins, removing templar energy upgrade, increasing Dark Shrine build time, increasing warpgate research time, making gateway units cost inefficient, etc. None of those fixes would be necessary if warpgates were designed better, and i'm hoping HotS actually brings enormous gameplay changes.
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This really actually sucks.
I agree that it unnecassarily limits options and creativity.
Hope this isn't set in stone.
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Lets wait and see what happens in the HotS beta - I mean I dislike the change but the new Protoss stuff may more than make it up for it.
Though this can cut down on cheese which is good but at the same time it cuts a lot of options for Protoss (more options more better for e-sports).
Also IMO (if they do the warp/building change) they should add a separate queue just for warp prisms (like reactors except one queue is for warp prisms only while the other is for all other Robo units).
At times though I think going the warp prism route makes it feel too generic compared to other races. In a way the fact that warp prisms weren't used as often as medivac or overlord drops makes it feel a bit more diverse.
Thinking about it as a type this - I now actually wouldn't mind if Warp Prisms were only rarely used and stuck in the same queue as other robotics units if there is an alternative (Oracle can be done for harass, pylon + hallucination for warp ins in enemy base, etc).
So IMO I think warp in from low to high ground should stay, Warp Prism should stay as a maybe 1 out of 10 games unit, and the Oracle could help fill in harass options for Protoss in HotS.
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On November 27 2011 11:57 Zanno wrote:
the game won't be balanceable until this is removed
being able to defend your choke so easily is by far one of the core reasons that starcraft is the only rts worth talking about
the warp in mechanic is sketchy enough, but the high ground warp-ups on tier 1 are just too much
just because it's cool, doesn't necessarily mean its good for the game
being able to directly infiltrate a main should require some tech investment
when you hear old TL veterans talk about how sc2 is a lot more volatile than bw was, this is one of the reasons why
when the line between a win and a loss comes down to whether or not you can get vision of a spot for a split second, there's going to be a lot less consistency in the game's result
for example take oz vs mma on belshir, where oz 4gated
if oz and mma played with the exact same builds 40 games in a row, it wouldn't have even gone 30-10, probably close to 20-20
High ground warp ins are actually not possible at tier 1 like your said, you need some kind of air vision which requires teching.
Hallucination and a 100 energy sentry doesn't really produce a powerful rush, then you have observers (but do you often see a 4gate observer??), warp prism, which you can drop units with anyway, and stargate units, which are considered tier 2 by my book.
A balanced game doesn't mean that Terran can make one bunker and be safe from everything, I'm sorry, because it will never be that way for Protoss. Oz lost that 4gate game, didn't he? And Puzzle lost with the same build against jjakji... What are you complaining about? Doesn't look like that unbeatable of a mechanics to me...
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But pylons on high ground can still power lower ground? Like on meta, where you put a pylon in your base and warp in the road
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On November 27 2011 12:54 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 11:57 Zanno wrote:
the game won't be balanceable until this is removed
being able to defend your choke so easily is by far one of the core reasons that starcraft is the only rts worth talking about
the warp in mechanic is sketchy enough, but the high ground warp-ups on tier 1 are just too much
just because it's cool, doesn't necessarily mean its good for the game
being able to directly infiltrate a main should require some tech investment
when you hear old TL veterans talk about how sc2 is a lot more volatile than bw was, this is one of the reasons why
when the line between a win and a loss comes down to whether or not you can get vision of a spot for a split second, there's going to be a lot less consistency in the game's result
for example take oz vs mma on belshir, where oz 4gated
if oz and mma played with the exact same builds 40 games in a row, it wouldn't have even gone 30-10, probably close to 20-20 High ground warp ins are actually not possible at tier 1 like your said, you need some kind of air vision which requires teching. Hallucination and a 100 energy sentry doesn't really produce a powerful rush, then you have observers (but do you often see a 4gate observer??), warp prism, which you can drop units with anyway, and stargate units, which are considered tier 2 by my book. A balanced game doesn't mean that Terran can make one bunker and be safe from everything, I'm sorry, because it will never be that way for Protoss. Oz lost that 4gate game, didn't he? And Puzzle lost with the same build against jjakji... What are you complaining about? Doesn't look like that unbeatable of a mechanics to me... what
the exciting strategy people are talking about involved 3gate expo and/or 4gate on maps like belshir and taldarim where you can run a stalker past the bunker line and warp in on high ground
if you don't consider stalkers tier 1, then we're at an impass, im afraid
people were talking about phoenixes and warp prisms before the thread got bumped but the current pvt trend has involved neither, just throw down a pylon and run past the terran
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I am not sure how much I like this. I guess it will be fine one you get used to is.
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Personally I think it's a great change. If it nerfs Protoss too much, compensate elsewhere, but I've always thought it was ridiculous you could build pylons on the lowground and completely bypass a huge wall barrier and warp in on the high ground through usage of hallu, colossus, phoenix/voidray, etc. As well as it being ridiculous in 2v2's with pylons + overlords...
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On November 27 2011 13:53 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 12:54 ZenithM wrote:On November 27 2011 11:57 Zanno wrote:
the game won't be balanceable until this is removed
being able to defend your choke so easily is by far one of the core reasons that starcraft is the only rts worth talking about
the warp in mechanic is sketchy enough, but the high ground warp-ups on tier 1 are just too much
just because it's cool, doesn't necessarily mean its good for the game
being able to directly infiltrate a main should require some tech investment
when you hear old TL veterans talk about how sc2 is a lot more volatile than bw was, this is one of the reasons why
when the line between a win and a loss comes down to whether or not you can get vision of a spot for a split second, there's going to be a lot less consistency in the game's result
for example take oz vs mma on belshir, where oz 4gated
if oz and mma played with the exact same builds 40 games in a row, it wouldn't have even gone 30-10, probably close to 20-20 High ground warp ins are actually not possible at tier 1 like your said, you need some kind of air vision which requires teching. Hallucination and a 100 energy sentry doesn't really produce a powerful rush, then you have observers (but do you often see a 4gate observer??), warp prism, which you can drop units with anyway, and stargate units, which are considered tier 2 by my book. A balanced game doesn't mean that Terran can make one bunker and be safe from everything, I'm sorry, because it will never be that way for Protoss. Oz lost that 4gate game, didn't he? And Puzzle lost with the same build against jjakji... What are you complaining about? Doesn't look like that unbeatable of a mechanics to me... what the exciting strategy people are talking about involved 3gate expo and/or 4gate on maps like belshir and taldarim where you can run a stalker past the bunker line and warp in on high ground if you don't consider stalkers tier 1, then we're at an impass, im afraid people were talking about phoenixes and warp prisms before the thread got bumped but the current pvt trend has involved neither, just throw down a pylon and run past the terran
i'm sorry, why would a good terran allow this? If you can walk a stalker to the ledge on Belshir (and to a lesser extent tal'darim) then it has no more tactical power to warp in from low ground then it would be to warp in on the front door.
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I find a lot of the anti 4 gate changes annoying. My biggest peeve is how they completely changed ramp sight. Have to poke in a lot further with a ling to get vision, hellion runbys can unexpectedly walk into banes, lots of little annoying things. Not to mention the inability to warp in on ramps, the decreased pylon radius and the warpgate/sentry build time change. Wouldn't making the only change inability to warp in on the ramp have basically fixed pvp 4 gate wars.
Personally i find using hallu/obs/stargate to get high ground vision and warp in really interesting. I don't even find ovies giving high ground warp in sight in pz vs xx too annoying.
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On November 27 2011 09:34 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 09:30 Hypemeup wrote:On October 24 2011 18:56 Crissaegrim wrote:
Another reason why most major tournaments end up with less and less P's in the top positions.
Yea, GJ Blizz. 10 protoss 4 zerg 2 terran DHW 2011. Yeah man fuck protoss UP. Oh and protoss finalist MLG. GSL is what matters son. It's still the highest competetive tournament.
Yea and lets look at this months shall we.
2toss in round of 8 and 1 zerg.
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On November 27 2011 13:53 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 12:54 ZenithM wrote:On November 27 2011 11:57 Zanno wrote:
the game won't be balanceable until this is removed
being able to defend your choke so easily is by far one of the core reasons that starcraft is the only rts worth talking about
the warp in mechanic is sketchy enough, but the high ground warp-ups on tier 1 are just too much
just because it's cool, doesn't necessarily mean its good for the game
being able to directly infiltrate a main should require some tech investment
when you hear old TL veterans talk about how sc2 is a lot more volatile than bw was, this is one of the reasons why
when the line between a win and a loss comes down to whether or not you can get vision of a spot for a split second, there's going to be a lot less consistency in the game's result
for example take oz vs mma on belshir, where oz 4gated
if oz and mma played with the exact same builds 40 games in a row, it wouldn't have even gone 30-10, probably close to 20-20 High ground warp ins are actually not possible at tier 1 like your said, you need some kind of air vision which requires teching. Hallucination and a 100 energy sentry doesn't really produce a powerful rush, then you have observers (but do you often see a 4gate observer??), warp prism, which you can drop units with anyway, and stargate units, which are considered tier 2 by my book. A balanced game doesn't mean that Terran can make one bunker and be safe from everything, I'm sorry, because it will never be that way for Protoss. Oz lost that 4gate game, didn't he? And Puzzle lost with the same build against jjakji... What are you complaining about? Doesn't look like that unbeatable of a mechanics to me... what the exciting strategy people are talking about involved 3gate expo and/or 4gate on maps like belshir and taldarim where you can run a stalker past the bunker line and warp in on high ground if you don't consider stalkers tier 1, then we're at an impass, im afraid people were talking about phoenixes and warp prisms before the thread got bumped but the current pvt trend has involved neither, just throw down a pylon and run past the terran
Yeah, I understood what you were talking about the first time, don't worry. I then pointed out 2 recent GSL games where Terran holds with one of its most economical build (aka 1 rax gasless expand) against a Protoss 4gate executed by good players.
And my question was: what is your problem with that?
Can you point out to me a good number of games where Protoss wins easily with the imba warp in, to prove that it's indeed imba?
If you want, I can show you a couple of (like thirty?) 1/1/1 wins, to show you what an overpowered build looks like.
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10387 Posts
On November 27 2011 13:53 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 12:54 ZenithM wrote:On November 27 2011 11:57 Zanno wrote:
the game won't be balanceable until this is removed
being able to defend your choke so easily is by far one of the core reasons that starcraft is the only rts worth talking about
the warp in mechanic is sketchy enough, but the high ground warp-ups on tier 1 are just too much
just because it's cool, doesn't necessarily mean its good for the game
being able to directly infiltrate a main should require some tech investment
when you hear old TL veterans talk about how sc2 is a lot more volatile than bw was, this is one of the reasons why
when the line between a win and a loss comes down to whether or not you can get vision of a spot for a split second, there's going to be a lot less consistency in the game's result
for example take oz vs mma on belshir, where oz 4gated
if oz and mma played with the exact same builds 40 games in a row, it wouldn't have even gone 30-10, probably close to 20-20 High ground warp ins are actually not possible at tier 1 like your said, you need some kind of air vision which requires teching. Hallucination and a 100 energy sentry doesn't really produce a powerful rush, then you have observers (but do you often see a 4gate observer??), warp prism, which you can drop units with anyway, and stargate units, which are considered tier 2 by my book. A balanced game doesn't mean that Terran can make one bunker and be safe from everything, I'm sorry, because it will never be that way for Protoss. Oz lost that 4gate game, didn't he? And Puzzle lost with the same build against jjakji... What are you complaining about? Doesn't look like that unbeatable of a mechanics to me... what the exciting strategy people are talking about involved 3gate expo and/or 4gate on maps like belshir and taldarim where you can run a stalker past the bunker line and warp in on high ground if you don't consider stalkers tier 1, then we're at an impass, im afraid people were talking about phoenixes and warp prisms before the thread got bumped but the current pvt trend has involved neither, just throw down a pylon and run past the terran
so you pull some SCVs to prevent the runby ......? doesn't sound hard to block at all
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IMO,they shoudl do this now and revert the warp gate and pylon radius changes
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On November 27 2011 09:30 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 18:56 Crissaegrim wrote:
Another reason why most major tournaments end up with less and less P's in the top positions.
Yea, GJ Blizz. 10 protoss 4 zerg 2 terran DHW 2011. Yeah man fuck protoss UP. Oh and protoss finalist MLG.
You do realize that his post was made over a month ago, before both MLG, and Dreamhack right? That was made back when Protoss WAS suffering.
I wish people would read the dates on posts.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 27 2011 13:53 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 12:54 ZenithM wrote:On November 27 2011 11:57 Zanno wrote:
the game won't be balanceable until this is removed
being able to defend your choke so easily is by far one of the core reasons that starcraft is the only rts worth talking about
the warp in mechanic is sketchy enough, but the high ground warp-ups on tier 1 are just too much
just because it's cool, doesn't necessarily mean its good for the game
being able to directly infiltrate a main should require some tech investment
when you hear old TL veterans talk about how sc2 is a lot more volatile than bw was, this is one of the reasons why
when the line between a win and a loss comes down to whether or not you can get vision of a spot for a split second, there's going to be a lot less consistency in the game's result
for example take oz vs mma on belshir, where oz 4gated
if oz and mma played with the exact same builds 40 games in a row, it wouldn't have even gone 30-10, probably close to 20-20 High ground warp ins are actually not possible at tier 1 like your said, you need some kind of air vision which requires teching. Hallucination and a 100 energy sentry doesn't really produce a powerful rush, then you have observers (but do you often see a 4gate observer??), warp prism, which you can drop units with anyway, and stargate units, which are considered tier 2 by my book. A balanced game doesn't mean that Terran can make one bunker and be safe from everything, I'm sorry, because it will never be that way for Protoss. Oz lost that 4gate game, didn't he? And Puzzle lost with the same build against jjakji... What are you complaining about? Doesn't look like that unbeatable of a mechanics to me... what the exciting strategy people are talking about involved 3gate expo and/or 4gate on maps like belshir and taldarim where you can run a stalker past the bunker line and warp in on high ground if you don't consider stalkers tier 1, then we're at an impass, im afraid people were talking about phoenixes and warp prisms before the thread got bumped but the current pvt trend has involved neither, just throw down a pylon and run past the terran
Define "tier". This term gets thrown around so much and it's basically nonsensical except when applied to zerg. Are zealots tier 1? They only require a gateway, so I guess that would make them tier 1. What about stalkers and sentries? They require a gateway and a cyber core, so they're tougher to get out. Does that make them tier 2? Tier 1.5? Tier 1.11112? What does that even mean? How about immortals, observers and warp prisms: they require a robotics facility. Tier 3 because of the cyber core? How about Dark Templar, they come out of the gateway, so that makes them tier 1, but they require a dark shrine, which comes after twilight council.
The tech is all over the place. It's even worse with terran. Do tech labs count as an extra tier? Are thors tier 2 or tier 3 (require armory)?
The only race this type of talk applies to is zerg, because their tech can be broken down into tiers: Hatchery, Lair and Hive.
Stop using the term.
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