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On June 12 2012 13:55 SheaR619 wrote:
It probably due to them trying to make mech more viable. Pretty impossible to go mech right away and be safe from all opening. With the possibility of warpign on the high ground gone, alot of all-in are eliminated which make mech opening more safe.
I'm sorry what???? I agree that they are going to buff siege tanks immensely in HoTS but the problem with mech is not the allins, the problem with mech is whenever the toss maxes and we can just a move with chargelots and immortals.
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At first I thought this was silly, then I realized I have literally never warped in from a low ground pylon to high ground nor built a building from a low ground pylon to the high ground in probably several thousand games.
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Cannon rush less viable. A good thing for low-end league cheesing.
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On June 12 2012 14:07 PlacidPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:55 SheaR619 wrote:
It probably due to them trying to make mech more viable. Pretty impossible to go mech right away and be safe from all opening. With the possibility of warpign on the high ground gone, alot of all-in are eliminated which make mech opening more safe. I'm sorry what???? I agree that they are going to buff siege tanks immensely in HoTS but the problem with mech is not the allins, the problem with mech is whenever the toss maxes and we can just a move with chargelots and immortals.
Disagree. A proper mech composition is stronger than a protoss deathball, as long as you respond correctly. Yea it's probably harder for the terran to make sure he gets a good engagement (and micro'ing well in battle), but still that's like the same way in TvP (arguable though). The later in game you go, the stronger your army gets, and by far. You can easily replace your SCVs for MULEs, hence getting a 165 food army vs his 130. If you think about that, that's almost 6 thors or BCs, in other words about another 2500-3000 HP to tank. That makes a huge difference.
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On June 12 2012 16:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 14:07 PlacidPanda wrote:On June 12 2012 13:55 SheaR619 wrote:
It probably due to them trying to make mech more viable. Pretty impossible to go mech right away and be safe from all opening. With the possibility of warpign on the high ground gone, alot of all-in are eliminated which make mech opening more safe. I'm sorry what???? I agree that they are going to buff siege tanks immensely in HoTS but the problem with mech is not the allins, the problem with mech is whenever the toss maxes and we can just a move with chargelots and immortals. Disagree. A proper mech composition is stronger than a protoss deathball, as long as you respond correctly. Yea it's probably harder for the terran to make sure he gets a good engagement (and micro'ing well in battle), but still that's like the same way in TvP (arguable though). The later in game you go, the stronger your army gets, and by far. You can easily replace your SCVs for MULEs, hence getting a 165 food army vs his 130. If you think about that, that's almost 6 thors or BCs, in other words about another 2500-3000 HP to tank. That makes a huge difference.
[Sarcasm On]
Sure I mean Feedback does no damage right?
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On June 12 2012 16:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 14:07 PlacidPanda wrote:On June 12 2012 13:55 SheaR619 wrote:
It probably due to them trying to make mech more viable. Pretty impossible to go mech right away and be safe from all opening. With the possibility of warpign on the high ground gone, alot of all-in are eliminated which make mech opening more safe. I'm sorry what???? I agree that they are going to buff siege tanks immensely in HoTS but the problem with mech is not the allins, the problem with mech is whenever the toss maxes and we can just a move with chargelots and immortals. Disagree. A proper mech composition is stronger than a protoss deathball, as long as you respond correctly. Yea it's probably harder for the terran to make sure he gets a good engagement (and micro'ing well in battle), but still that's like the same way in TvP (arguable though). The later in game you go, the stronger your army gets, and by far. You can easily replace your SCVs for MULEs, hence getting a 165 food army vs his 130. If you think about that, that's almost 6 thors or BCs, in other words about another 2500-3000 HP to tank. That makes a huge difference.
You are partially right. I played mech terran in all matchups for about 6 months, and the real problem with mech is not the dps of the units (a mech army deals an insane amount of dps). The problem with playing mech is that you essentially trade places with the protoss in terms of play style. You sacrifice the mobility you would have had as a bio player (using dropship play with Marines and Maruaders) and instead you sit back and play in a semi-passive manner with the exception of blue flame hellion runbys, and hellion drops. This hellion harassment decreases in effectiveness as the skill of opponents increases and decreases in effectiveness as the game progresses. What that pretty much means is that once a good protoss realizes you are going mech, he will expand everywhere. You cant really deny that (even with BF hellion). He expands everywhere and just techs. Once the mech player maxes and seeks an engagement, a good protoss will use the inherent immobility of mech against the mech player. Basically, unless your protoss opponent obliges you by a-moving his army into your siege line you will have a hard time winning. And if you get caught un-sieged you instantly lose because mech units are expensive and take a long time to make.
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Yeah, terran's ultimate deathball gets no where near the protoss equivalent. Unsure of who you're kidding here. HT's are pretty darn good.
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On June 12 2012 15:46 DarKcS wrote:
Cannon rush less viable. A good thing for low-end league cheesing.
Are you serious? The "low to high" cannon rushes are the easiest to deal with, just be thoughtful with how you deal with it, and scout. If people in "low-end leagues" learn that while they are in "low-end leauges" then they are FAR better for it. I'm not one to say that "everyone should cannon rush, proxy 3rax, 6pool" and whatever EVERY GAME, nor would I say that you should "cannon rush to masters" - but god damn, if you can't a) handle it sometimes and b) dish it out, you really haven't played the game properly.
I'll point out: Yes there are the BOSS MODE pylon-block cannon rushes that you can do on some maps, but I'm purely referring to the low-high ones that are used currently given that the pylon powers the highground.
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On June 12 2012 13:37 Probe1 wrote:
I disagree with the change completely but if it absolutely must go through, go half and half on it. Let pylons warp in on the low ground but not high ground. Or vice versa; pick whichever is better.
But yeah, this is just flat out stripping tactics from the game and making it more bland for the 22 range tempest design.
Yeah I'd say allow high to low ground warp-ins. This happens a lot, e.g. a Pylon on the edge of your base to allow warp-ins just outside of your base on the lower ground. This should definitely remain possible if this change goes through. If high-ground warpins are disabled, they can at least restore the range of the Pylon to what it was before (because it was changed to nerf 4-gate with Pylons on the low ground specifically I believe).
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On June 12 2012 16:35 xjoehammerx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 16:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 12 2012 14:07 PlacidPanda wrote:On June 12 2012 13:55 SheaR619 wrote:
It probably due to them trying to make mech more viable. Pretty impossible to go mech right away and be safe from all opening. With the possibility of warpign on the high ground gone, alot of all-in are eliminated which make mech opening more safe. I'm sorry what???? I agree that they are going to buff siege tanks immensely in HoTS but the problem with mech is not the allins, the problem with mech is whenever the toss maxes and we can just a move with chargelots and immortals. Disagree. A proper mech composition is stronger than a protoss deathball, as long as you respond correctly. Yea it's probably harder for the terran to make sure he gets a good engagement (and micro'ing well in battle), but still that's like the same way in TvP (arguable though). The later in game you go, the stronger your army gets, and by far. You can easily replace your SCVs for MULEs, hence getting a 165 food army vs his 130. If you think about that, that's almost 6 thors or BCs, in other words about another 2500-3000 HP to tank. That makes a huge difference. You are partially right. I played mech terran in all matchups for about 6 months, and the real problem with mech is not the dps of the units (a mech army deals an insane amount of dps). The problem with playing mech is that you essentially trade places with the protoss in terms of play style. You sacrifice the mobility you would have had as a bio player (using dropship play with Marines and Maruaders) and instead you sit back and play in a semi-passive manner with the exception of blue flame hellion runbys, and hellion drops. This hellion harassment decreases in effectiveness as the skill of opponents increases and decreases in effectiveness as the game progresses. What that pretty much means is that once a good protoss realizes you are going mech, he will expand everywhere. You cant really deny that (even with BF hellion). He expands everywhere and just techs. Once the mech player maxes and seeks an engagement, a good protoss will use the inherent immobility of mech against the mech player. Basically, unless your protoss opponent obliges you by a-moving his army into your siege line you will have a hard time winning. And if you get caught un-sieged you instantly lose because mech units are expensive and take a long time to make.
I'm not sure what it is I'm partially wrong on. I was just commenting that it's not true that protoss can just a-move and win, since mech compositions can easily be stronger.
Also I disagree with the mass expanding with Nexus part. It depends on the mech style. If you play a turtle mech style (basically, low tank count early instead of focusing on banshees and thors, opening with something like cloak banshees) then yeah. But if you play a tank hellion style, you'll have a lot of hellions to slow down the protoss. He can't mass expand against that style. Though if i'm wrong, please point me to a replay or something.
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Sounds like a fine change to me. Doesn't it just give a little bit more of an edge to the defender?
As long as high ground pylons still power the low ground I think it is a good change.
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Once more: Can anyone confirm this with HotS at MLG?
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I was under the impression that pylons draw their energies from the psionic matrix on Aiur, unaffected by such meaningless mortal concepts such as "high ground" and operate within a perfect magnetic radius. The protoss are fools--their technology seems to be regressing rapidly. Soon they will be substituting quartz for khaydarin crystal. Cost-cutting cheap ass protoss.
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On June 12 2012 17:41 kochujang wrote:
Once more: Can anyone confirm this with HotS at MLG?
I hope not. As far as I'm concerned, all this does it remove variety and excitement from the game.
Warping in on different levels of ground is not imbalanced, it just punishes players who are too lazy to properly cover their base with pylons/depots/overlords, and/or rewards good positioning with observers etc. I have yet to see a pro starcraft game that was lost by a low-high or high-low ground warpin that could not have been defended had the loser been properly attentive to the possibility for it.
On June 12 2012 12:45 BronzeKnee wrote:Removing this makes it a lot harder for Protoss players to punish greedy openers. A lot harder. I strongly oppose this change unless there is some early game buff for Protoss to compensate. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 12:39 Wildmoon wrote:
I like it. I get rid of some gimmick play from Protoss. Should Blizzard simply removed Cloaked Banshees, Nydus Worms, ect... simply because people see them as gimmicky?
Has it right. The only justification for removing it (some people find it "cheesy" and/or don't like playing against it because they're too lazy to learn/practice the proper response) also applies to cloaked banshees, nydus worms, dts, marine-scv all ins, 4gate, 6 pool, etc etc etc
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This will change some PvP builds and PvZ all-ins D:
Doesn't it just give a little bit more of an edge to the defender?
yep
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So someone bumped this thread hoping for an answer from the MLG Anaheim build, yet all we get are 5 pages of opinions with not a single real confirmation of this change?
I might be a bit too impatient, but I do find this quite funny. Argue all you want, since no one has any really useful information yet.
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On June 12 2012 16:44 Duckvillelol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 15:46 DarKcS wrote:
Cannon rush less viable. A good thing for low-end league cheesing. Are you serious? The "low to high" cannon rushes are the easiest to deal with, just be thoughtful with how you deal with it, and scout. If people in "low-end leagues" learn that while they are in "low-end leauges" then they are FAR better for it. I'm not one to say that "everyone should cannon rush, proxy 3rax, 6pool" and whatever EVERY GAME, nor would I say that you should "cannon rush to masters" - but god damn, if you can't a) handle it sometimes and b) dish it out, you really haven't played the game properly. I'll point out: Yes there are the BOSS MODE pylon-block cannon rushes that you can do on some maps, but I'm purely referring to the low-high ones that are used currently given that the pylon powers the highground.
A guy on my team is top 1000 master player and cannon rushes nearly every game. He has some really tricky builds and it relaly requires you to respond perfectly. I do not think it is as easy to deal with as you think.
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Is this where I can QQ about Tempest 22 range?
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This is obviously intentioned to restore back the defenders advantage (which isnt completly restored since you can warp in units anywhere anyway)
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I personally don't like this. I think if the Protoss can get the pylon into a position and can view the high ground, pylons should be able to "warp up" to the high ground. It is a calculated risk taken by the Protoss and encourages better scouting in my opinion. But I for one am of the opinion that scouting is still a bit lax among many of the high ranking players. Maybe my premium on information is too high, who knows.
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EPT
