EPTIn HOTS, low pylons no longer power high ground - Page 43
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
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skeptic916
United States17 Posts
On June 12 2012 19:09 Space Invader wrote: warpgate is already overpowered as hell, anything to make it worse is great I can't remember where I first heard this, but having warpgates cool-down depend on the distance from the gate to the warp in point vary by distance sounds fair to me. I think there should be some sort of trade off between warpgates and regular gates. But Protosses are still losing games, on the other hand. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 12 2012 16:44 Duckvillelol wrote: Are you serious? The "low to high" cannon rushes are the easiest to deal with, just be thoughtful with how you deal with it, and scout. If people in "low-end leagues" learn that while they are in "low-end leauges" then they are FAR better for it. I'm not one to say that "everyone should cannon rush, proxy 3rax, 6pool" and whatever EVERY GAME, nor would I say that you should "cannon rush to masters" - but god damn, if you can't a) handle it sometimes and b) dish it out, you really haven't played the game properly. I'll point out: Yes there are the BOSS MODE pylon-block cannon rushes that you can do on some maps, but I'm purely referring to the low-high ones that are used currently given that the pylon powers the highground. Sorry bro, you can play the game without ever having to cannon rush. The simple fact that you say cannon rush is a required skill for any protoss makes me think you must cannon rush a lot. Which isn't a bad thing, mind you, cannon rush is fine. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
On June 12 2012 19:15 ZenithM wrote: Sorry bro, you can play the game without ever having to cannon rush. The simple fact that you say cannon rush is a required skill for any protoss makes me think you must cannon rush a lot. Which isn't a bad thing, mind you, cannon rush is fine. You can play the game without a proxy stargate, without a 4gate, without a immortal allin, without X. Sorry but nerfing strategies, even if they're the dreadful cheese is bad design imo. If blizzard really wants us to use WPs more they should do it in a different manner, this is taking away from something just so that a certain strategy MIGHT be used more. | ||
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
On June 12 2012 18:48 Deimos0 wrote: What is there to QQ about (in terms of Tempest)? Have you seen how slow it shoots and moves? How many Tempests you're expecting to see in battle? 3? 4 maybe? You sir get trolled easily .... that was obvious trolling ... | ||
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Siffer
United States467 Posts
I always thought it was silly that some peoples main strategy is to cross their fingers and hope they get a unit high enough on the ramp so they can use their low ground pylon to warp in units. | ||
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Rube_Juice
Canada348 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 12 2012 19:15 ZenithM wrote: Sorry bro, you can play the game without ever having to cannon rush. The simple fact that you say cannon rush is a required skill for any protoss makes me think you must cannon rush a lot. Which isn't a bad thing, mind you, cannon rush is fine. You can play the game without ever having to do any X build. For a player still learning standard decision making (<high GM), cannon rushing provides little. If you're looking to win at very high levels, cannon rushes are some times better in the few situations they're viable. To neglect them embraces incompetence. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On June 12 2012 19:13 skeptic916 wrote: I can't remember where I first heard this, but having warpgates cool-down depend on the distance from the gate to the warp in point vary by distance sounds fair to me. I think there should be some sort of trade off between warpgates and regular gates. But Protosses are still losing games, on the other hand. This idea wouldn't work for 2 simple reasons. 1: One way to implement this change is have the maximum length of the cooldown be the same length as the current cool down, or else protoss will be forced to stay passive the entire game, because they can't apply pressure. If you want to take away aggressive options from the protoss and force them to stay in their base, then this would be the proper way to do it. And i think everyone agrees that that's a terrible implementation. 2: The other way to do it would be to double the cooldown as compared to the current situation, but improve unit stats accordingly, otherwise protoss will get rolled any day of the week. So when you do this people will just go proxy 4 gate and completely wreck face, because their units are now the best in the game. Distance dependent warp gates simply don't work. You might as well take warpgate research away from the game entirely and just let protoss have gateways with adjusted unit stats (which wouldn't be a terrible idea). | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
On June 12 2012 19:13 skeptic916 wrote: I can't remember where I first heard this, but having warpgates cool-down depend on the distance from the gate to the warp in point vary by distance sounds fair to me. I think there should be some sort of trade off between warpgates and regular gates. But Protosses are still losing games, on the other hand. Maybe it was someone else but I also thought that! But then again, I think that's one factor that can make starcraft less-calculating, if it's directly related to distance... what I mean is, instead of it being like 10.5 or 10.3 seconds, maybe it should only be in second intervals, or 2 second intervals, or something. Maybe there's 4 intervals, and it'll tell you how long it'll take: if you pick the stalker for example, maybe there's 4 colors to show it warping in (before you place it); green, yellow, orange, red. Each one could respectively mean 10 seconds, 12 seconds, 14, 16, etc. That way the players would know how long it would take, and it wouldn't be so imba for bigger maps. It would make protoss macro a bit harder too, since they'll have to hotkey a group of gates that are at another base if they want to be efficient. Protoss needs more things to do IMO, their APM is usually always lower :D Edit; Good point by fragile51. I think the increasing warp time would not make the overall build time longer. So like 10 seconds and 30 second cooldown should be like 12 second 28 or something. Maybe blizz would still think that's too complicated though. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On June 13 2012 01:54 Fragile51 wrote: This idea wouldn't work for 2 simple reasons. 1: One way to implement this change is have the maximum length of the cooldown be the same length as the current cool down, or else protoss will be forced to stay passive the entire game, because they can't apply pressure. If you want to take away aggressive options from the protoss and force them to stay in their base, then this would be the proper way to do it. And i think everyone agrees that that's a terrible implementation. 2: The other way to do it would be to double the cooldown as compared to the current situation, but improve unit stats accordingly, otherwise protoss will get rolled any day of the week. So when you do this people will just go proxy 4 gate and completely wreck face, because their units are now the best in the game. Distance dependent warp gates simply don't work. You might as well take warpgate research away from the game entirely and just let protoss have gateways with adjusted unit stats (which wouldn't be a terrible idea). I assumed people meant that the cooldown itself stayed the same, but the actual warp in time for the unit itself was longer. Right now it's set at 5s. If it's across the map, maybe it warps in over 10s? Although I'd rather them smiply not change it, despite my hatred for how warpgate fucks with defender's advantage. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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MrCash
United States1504 Posts
On June 13 2012 02:32 Xyik wrote: I'm not really seeing any convincing arguments as to why this change should not be implemented / is bad... Only one I remember is it removes some gimmicky cheeses, like on Antiga we would see toss place a pylon behind cliff to main and warp in zealots with void rays. Can be quite strong, but rather gimmicky. Some pro players mentioned this and said it's an interesting addition and dynamic, but still rather cheesy. Maybe they felt it made warp gates just too powerful and provided too much utility for such a loss cost. Being able to reinforce anywhere on the map with a faster cool down on all the units is already pretty damn amazing. Maybe after a while they will balance it back so you can at least warp in to 1 level above, but not to 2 levels above (like on Shakuras from 3rd to main or on Antiga from cliff to main). | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On June 13 2012 02:32 Xyik wrote: I'm not really seeing any convincing arguments as to why this change should not be implemented / is bad... There are a lot problems with this change. First, Protoss Tier 1 banks heavily on Warpgates, and thus anytime you nerf it, you should in return buff something else in Protoss Tier 1 arsenal. If that is the case, then great, but otherwise this is a massive nerf. Imagine if Blizzard required an Overlord before Spawning Pool so Zerg couldn't 6 pool. Great change a lot of players would say, gets rid of all that early Pool cheese right? Sure but it also nerfs Zerg heavily, and allows Protoss and Terran to expand in a much greedier fashion. The same logic applies here. As long as you can protect your front from the relatively weak Tier 1 Protoss units, then you are safe early. Second, this makes the Stargate increasingly less useful. With air units you could spot and then use Pylons to attack into an enemies base. But now only a Warp Prism is there. You might say "well that gets rid of the cheesy VR-allin." It sure does, but then what role does the Stargate play in PvT? Absolutely none. We might as well nerf Tanks while we are at it, because the Factory plays a small role in PvT generally and it would rid us of the 1-1-1 completely. What kind of logic is that? Finally, a lot of players like to use the low ground pylon in the natural early to power the high ground to place down their Cybercore to protect their Cyber from early attacks in PvZ (Cloud Kingdom is an example of this). It will be vulnerable in the natural again, enpowering Zerg cheese vs Protoss. So the problem here, and the convincing argument is, why is Blizzard removing aggressive options from Protoss, which is the race that struggles to apply aggression (other than all-ins) often in the first place? Like removing the 6 Pool or 1-1-1, this change would only make it harder to punish people playing very greedy or taking blind economic risks. And that is what bothers me most. People who like to play a more aggressive style (like me) are constantly being punished by the map pool and these changes. And it will lead to everyone playing one macro style that doesn't require much scouting, and then the game will come down to one big engagement itself and who controls slightly better. And that certainly doesn't mean there is more skill involved. I hate when games come down to one big engagement in the middle, one misclick and any lead you have (or your opponent) is gone and the player who played worse the entire game can take it. I don't think there is anything more coin-flippy than that, since it isn't even something you can control by scouting or any other means. So much for creativity. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On October 24 2011 18:38 K_Dilkington wrote: haha they must really hate the protoss race or something. Maybe they will do lots of balancing so this change wont be so bad, we will see. *cough* 22 range *cough* | ||
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GT3
Iraq100 Posts
On October 24 2011 18:37 Morfildur wrote: I like that change, the only thing it really affects are "abusive"/gimmicky strategies like 4gate and cannon rushes and there is never a need to place a lowground pylon to power highground buildings in a normal game. Good change, now they just need to remove the space behind the minerals on all maps to make me as a Zerg happy  You got 25% Overlord speed buff without upgrade and buff to the queens which have always been good but now every Zerg is just going to get more of them (queens). Zerg doesn't need any changes done in the race's favor now nor in the future. You're a very strong race now and I'm sure if the pro Zergs stop playing safe and do all-in's like the zergs on ladder, you'll win every tournament because the other races can't stop a 200/200 army at 10-12 minutes, where Terrans and Protosses will have about 100-150 supply at that time. | ||
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