On October 21 2011 00:49 Daralii wrote: Many people seem to be of the opinion that the warp gate is a failed mechanic: the original intent seemed to be giving protoss a variety of harassment options and to keep up with the added production capabilities of the reactor and Inject Larvae, but for the sake of balancing early aggression, gateway units were made incredibly weak unless together in large numbers.
This forced protoss to rely on their higher tier units, namely the colossus and high templar while at the same time limiting aggression due to how weak the units produced at the warp gate are. Despite this, the highter tier units have been nerfed constantly, and Mr. Browder implied a while ago that you had plans for the colossus as well, while not having any intention of buffing the zealot or stalker to compensate. At this point, would it not be better to simply remove the warp gate?
Besides the PvP situation prior to the ramp vision nerf, I don't think Warp Gate is a problem. And Blizzard is certainly not going to delete one of the main themes of the race.
Instead of killing warpgate, boosting gateway unit,s and breaking the feel of Protoss, they just need to add better options to deal with the current problems.
Questions:
What are Blizzard going to do about these Protoss problems:
Problems that need addressing: - Like early game small Protoss armies are so easily trapped and killed out on the map by speedling surrounds or whatnot. =A solution could be hallucinations that last much longer so Protoss are more map aware, or a way to temporarily give these groups of units an escape mechanism. A miniature recall, speed boost, or something if it could be balanced that early on.
- Protoss dealing with multi drops from Terran. =A solution could be start observers with the speed upgrade or larger vision to spot better. Or allow players to move the resources options over the minimap so it's easier to keep in view.
- Make Protoss tier 3 AOE (or tier 3 in general) more nimble and microable. Right now they are just kinda slow and clunky, with obvious (boring?) uses if the enemy walks into them, and with very definite counters. Slow and clunky means that there is no room for improvement from the players. =A solution may be a reaver mode for the colossus, so that it transforms into a slower but harder hitting unit. No longer able to traverse cliffs or walk over units.
- EMP vs Protoss. =Give Protoss some option to make a unit or two immune to EMP. Maybe if you cast a 75 energy chrono on an immortal or sentry, he is now immune to EMP for 60 seconds or something. That way to allow some options for early defense and then options for the ball vs ball fights that seem to be swinging in the favor of EMP too often lately.
On October 21 2011 22:20 Avan wrote: Why do you keep Protoss in the game if it's not supposed to be usable?
Why so much whining? Is Protoss really unusable? All this over the top whining becomes really annoying when you read through this whole thread.
On topic, Question: How do you feel about the skill cap design of the Protoss race? It feels like having a lower skill cap really makes the balacing so much harder, because if you buff something to help professional players the rest of the players suffer so much. Maybe the answer is putting units that scale better with players' skill.
After seeing 21 Terran Players in the GSL Code S and only 2 Protosses, you still have to ask that? And MLG Orlando was sooooo not the tournament to talk about Protoss being cool... Like anyone who attended could beat HuK and/or MC.
anyone with half a brain would realize that the reason there are so many terrans in Code S has more to do with the structure of the tournament and *gasp!* player skill. People are seeing way too much "balance" in Code S and don't seem able to take the context of the tournament into consideration. Also, Orlando was a very competitive tournament -- Huk played really well, but him winning wasn't by any means a given.
No, there were a lot of issues with the game that are only now starting to get better. bo1 does favor terran, but having such a glut of terran in code s really indicates that somethings amiss at the highest level.
On October 22 2011 00:31 Blacklizard wrote: Instead of killing warpgate, boosting gateway unit,s and breaking the feel of Protoss, they just need to add better options to deal with the current problems.
Umm, they 'broke the feel of Protoss' when they made zealots and stalkers weak. They need to 'get back to where they once belonged.'
1. Can you explain the phenomenon of people derailing every possible thing into a balance whine?
2. Starcraft 2 is a faster paced game than sc1/BW, is this what you were looking for? If not, how would you slow it down (be it removal of injects/mules, changing the damage system ect)?
3. What is the length of a perfect game, that you as developers aimed for?
It seems like there are 100% protoss players on team liquid nowadays , but you know what? im smarter than that, there is no way there are 100% protoss players on this site, However what can be concluded is that this site has a huge AMOUNT of people that don't actually play the game , They see a whine, and they jump on bandwagon because they want to be part of the "inn crowd"., whining about terran is the "in" thing to do because there are more terrans in code S.
If they actually played the game and faced off against protoss, all these whines about how under-powered the protoss race is complete garbage. There is a reason there is not a single foreign terran that is good enough to hang with the korean terrans in terms of skill, whereas with other races( Protoss and Zerg) the players are right up there with the best of the best and can take games off the best korean terrans , names such as huk/idra/dimaga/sen/stephano, all these guys are capable of raping a tournament and winning it for the foreign scene, yet whereas for terran, what terran player does the foreign community really have that you could definately say, he has a great shot at taking an MLG, or an IPL, i will be waiting to hear.
I will tell you what the hard facts of the matter is, Terran takes the most amount of mechanics /multitasking /micro and speed to play, The same foreigners we have that are at the top of their game ( idra/huk/stephano )etc would be complete garbage at playing terran. They play mechanically easier races thus are able to compete at the top. It takes a Code S terran to beat a average protoss, it takes a code S terran to compete with medicore zergs... Just look at bomber, this guy practices day in and day out in the startale house ( go check the video recently posted)... and he then looses to guy called idra who admit-tingly only played for 3-4 hours a day, Idra on inside the game stated he did not know how he won.. Do we really believe that idra is just magically "better " than all these players?
Look at stephano, the guy plays basically 3 hours a day and can compete with the best. Name me a fucking terran that can compete at the top with so little practice, I seen select say he's been practising day in and day out at times just so that he can beat a protoss.
all this whining has got to stop, Its just retarded, i wouldnt be surprised if blizzard cuts short Q& A panel for sc2 because its full of garbage questions .
Have you ever considered that the constant high frequency balance changes in sc2 (in contrast to sc1) may be the result of a game that has insufficient amounts of player input, both on the micro and macro side of things?
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote: It seems like there are 100% protoss players on team liquid nowadays , but you know what? im smarter than that, there is no way there are 100% protoss players on this site, However what can be concluded is that this site has a huge AMOUNT of people that don't actually play the game , They see a whine, and they jump on bandwagon because they want to be part of the "inn crowd"., whining about terran is the "in" thing to do because there are more terrans in code S.
And yet a certain GSL player in Code S said that he feels terran is OP (his words) and that alot of those Terrans don't deserve to be there?
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote:If they actually played the game and faced off against protoss, all these whines about how under-powered the protoss race is complete garbage.
Seems like you're basing this off your own ladder experience, the game is balanced around pro-level, not your skill level.
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote:I will tell you what the hard facts of the matter is, Terran takes the most amount of mechanics /multitasking /micro and speed to play
How far up your ass did you manage to pull this from? Where is your evidence to say that Terrans have the "hardest" everything in the game, If anything it's considered that Terran have the most basic of micro and that appeals to new players.
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote:all this whining has got to stop, Its just retarded, i wouldnt be surprised if blizzard cuts short Q& A panel for sc2 because its full of garbage questions .
Yes but most people actually back up their "whining" with evidence, not just post like yours with no facts to back it up and complete bias of one race.
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote: It seems like there are 100% protoss players on team liquid nowadays , but you know what? im smarter than that, there is no way there are 100% protoss players on this site, However what can be concluded is that this site has a huge AMOUNT of people that don't actually play the game , They see a whine, and they jump on bandwagon because they want to be part of the "inn crowd"., whining about terran is the "in" thing to do because there are more terrans in code S.
If they actually played the game and faced off against protoss, all these whines about how under-powered the protoss race is complete garbage. There is a reason there is not a single foreign terran that is good enough to hang with the korean terrans in terms of skill, whereas with other races( Protoss and Zerg) the players are right up there with the best of the best and can take games off the best korean terrans , names such as huk/idra/dimaga/sen/stephano, all these guys are capable of raping a tournament and winning it for the foreign scene, yet whereas for terran, what terran player does the foreign community really have that you could definately say, he has a great shot at taking an MLG, or an IPL, i will be waiting to hear.
I will tell you what the hard facts of the matter is, Terran takes the most amount of mechanics /multitasking /micro and speed to play, The same foreigners we have that are at the top of their game ( idra/huk/stephano )etc would be complete garbage at playing terran. They play mechanically easier races thus are able to compete at the top. It takes a Code S terran to beat a average protoss, it takes a code S terran to compete with medicore zergs... Just look at bomber, this guy practices day in and day out in the startale house ( go check the video recently posted)... and he then looses to guy called idra who admit-tingly only played for 3-4 hours a day, Idra on inside the game stated he did not know how he won.. Do we really believe that idra is just magically "better " than all these players?
Look at stephano, the guy plays basically 3 hours a day and can compete with the best. Name me a fucking terran that can compete at the top with so little practice, I seen select say he's been practising day in and day out at times just so that he can beat a protoss.
all this whining has got to stop, Its just retarded, i wouldnt be surprised if blizzard cuts short Q& A panel for sc2 because its full of garbage questions .
Cool story bro, did you really just whine about whiners? And it's ironic how you're whining how terran's hard and zergs easy
Dustin, why is the marauder so boring, it a great strong unit, but ok anti-armour massable = boring even jinro said it
Question: Hello, Dustin! Don't you think that battles flow too fast that players almost cannot micro properly to show their skill and it bring much of a luck to the result? Also don't you think that it can be because of unit clumping too much? Thanks.
Hey dustin, how many times have you lagged out of a game in a tournament? Have you ever felt that having LAN would help you in this situation a lot? What about BLizzcon having internet failure? how do u accomodate for not having bnet up to play? Do you then give us LAN?
On October 21 2011 22:20 Avan wrote: Why do you keep Protoss in the game if it's not supposed to be usable?
Why so much whining? Is Protoss really unusable? All this over the top whining becomes really annoying when you read through this whole thread.
On topic, Question: How do you feel about the skill cap design of the Protoss race? It feels like having a lower skill cap really makes the balacing so much harder, because if you buff something to help professional players the rest of the players suffer so much. Maybe the answer is putting units that scale better with players' skill.
After seeing 21 Terran Players in the GSL Code S and only 2 Protosses, you still have to ask that? And MLG Orlando was sooooo not the tournament to talk about Protoss being cool... Like anyone who attended could beat HuK and/or MC.
They could, but they didn't, did they? So now even when Protoss players win P is still UP? Go figure. But that's not really my point. My point is: if you think P is UP for some reason, then just formulate a question that address this. Most questions here could be summarized as: "OMG, Why ghosts are so imba?"
About the GSL numbers. I think Koreans really prefer Terran and they really make T look good. I wonder why, though, most top foreign players are Z and P. They really just prefer playing the UP races? What's the sense in that?
Wow, you're absolutely correct. All Koreans really prefer Terran. Ghosts and marines are not particularly imba units. All good players picked Terran. Except Nestea, but that's because he doesn't want to practice as much as Terran players.
This logic is ridiculous. I've read this bull shit enough times in this thread.
Well, JonnyLaw pretty much said it all. I think people who are stupid enough to believe that Terran dominance is due to 'cultural differences' or 'players' preferences' don't quite understand how this scene works.
They are professionals, are they not? So, unlike guys like you, who probably 'play just for fun', they make a living out of this game. They are paid to win. If a race has obvious advantages (marines and mules? anyone?) why not use it? Anyway, the point is simple: Protoss is useless at the moment. One CANNOT use foreign tournaments where 2 players have a skill level way above that of all the others to say a race is fine.
To put it simply, in case you don't understand what I'm saying: in terms of balance no tournament matters but the GSL, where the BEST PLAYERS IN THE WHOLE WORLD compete against each other.
Got it? Good.
Name 3 BW high ranking Protoss.
Now try Terran, you could probably name 10.
And lol @ huk and MC have skills way above rest of others. There were 5 or so code S players there and 3-5 code S material players.If anything Huk and MC was far from favorite to win MLG
wut top 32 players who are code s worthy: HuK MC MKP Bomber
That's it dude. Who else do you think is Code-S worthy?
Why did this also turn into a balance whine thread?
I would really like to know how Clan support is coming along! when will we be able to link ourselves to friends/teams and will clan support go beyond a simple tag? (team stats, best Zerg/Terran/Protoss, Clan [insert name here] Multiple teams?)
On the topic of maps, how do you see the opportunity of holding a map contest every season for players to get their maps in ladder? There are many people who remain dedicated to the map making community
On October 21 2011 21:46 gulshngill wrote: Dear Dustin Browder,
1. High Templar. When it came to fixing the Khydarian Amulet, why did Blizzard decide to remove the whole ability and not tweak it (+10 starting energy instead of +25 and 50 more max energy, making it more resistant to EMPs)? Will we be seeing more spells for this unit to make it more multipurpose?
2. Mothership. Will the Mothership get any new spells/upgrades in the upcoming expansion to make it a more multipurpose unit? You're only allowed one at a time, at least make it cost effective.
3. Carrier. A buff?
1. Kyhdarian amulet was removed because of the reversed production cycle. If you start a high templar and an infestor at exactly the same time the high templar has 75 energy when the infestor spawns. The high templar can also be warped in anywhere on the map with a power field. I don't get why people ask about this. It is as if they haven't even tested this.
2. Have you been watching people like inka or kiwi at ipl that actually use the mothership recently? The mothership is a good unit
3. The problem with the carrier is the colossus. The colossus is a massive air targetable unit like the carrier, and what you get to counter the colossus also counters carriers. The anti colossus units have to do high damage because colossi kill things arguably way too quickly. I guess the interceptors are a little too fragile though.
1. Khaydarin question was about having the Khaydarin spawn with +10 energy or with +energy regen or with +50 maximum energy.... He obviously understands that warp in storms were too powerful... He's asking why they didn't replace it with something instead of removing it and makin the Templar Archives the "building you get psistorm from".
2. If you think the Mothership is a good unit you're insane. It's a STRONG unit with POWERFUL capabilities... but it's not a GOOD unit. It takes 4 minutes without chrono to build one. You can build only one. Arbiters do EVERYTHING a mothership does, and does it better and more often.... Except that Archons would no longer be able to insta kill mass broodlord...
3. The problem with the Carrier is not the Colossus per se... if it were then Zealot Templar PvT would have crazy good transitions into Carriers because no anti-armored/massive air would be out for the Terran... it's more that the Carrier is hella expensive and only works as a final nail in the coffin... much like the Ultralisk used to work.
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote: It seems like there are 100% protoss players on team liquid nowadays , but you know what? im smarter than that, there is no way there are 100% protoss players on this site, However what can be concluded is that this site has a huge AMOUNT of people that don't actually play the game , They see a whine, and they jump on bandwagon because they want to be part of the "inn crowd"., whining about terran is the "in" thing to do because there are more terrans in code S.
If they actually played the game and faced off against protoss, all these whines about how under-powered the protoss race is complete garbage. There is a reason there is not a single foreign terran that is good enough to hang with the korean terrans in terms of skill, whereas with other races( Protoss and Zerg) the players are right up there with the best of the best and can take games off the best korean terrans , names such as huk/idra/dimaga/sen/stephano, all these guys are capable of raping a tournament and winning it for the foreign scene, yet whereas for terran, what terran player does the foreign community really have that you could definately say, he has a great shot at taking an MLG, or an IPL, i will be waiting to hear.
I will tell you what the hard facts of the matter is, Terran takes the most amount of mechanics /multitasking /micro and speed to play, The same foreigners we have that are at the top of their game ( idra/huk/stephano )etc would be complete garbage at playing terran. They play mechanically easier races thus are able to compete at the top. It takes a Code S terran to beat a average protoss, it takes a code S terran to compete with medicore zergs... Just look at bomber, this guy practices day in and day out in the startale house ( go check the video recently posted)... and he then looses to guy called idra who admit-tingly only played for 3-4 hours a day, Idra on inside the game stated he did not know how he won.. Do we really believe that idra is just magically "better " than all these players?
Look at stephano, the guy plays basically 3 hours a day and can compete with the best. Name me a fucking terran that can compete at the top with so little practice, I seen select say he's been practising day in and day out at times just so that he can beat a protoss.
all this whining has got to stop, Its just retarded, i wouldnt be surprised if blizzard cuts short Q& A panel for sc2 because its full of garbage questions .
Cool story bro, did you really just whine about whiners? And it's ironic how you're whining how terran's hard and zergs easy
Dustin, why is the marauder so boring, it a great strong unit, but ok anti-armour massable = boring even jinro said it
Although I don't fully agree with everything he said there's definitely some truth in the second and third paragraphs. You don't see foreigner terrans that actually have a shot at beating a big tournament like MLG and IPL while there are foreigner zergs and protoss that actually can (huk/stephano/idra comes to mind).
The training part is somewhat true too. Bomber trains way more than Idra and still Idra could beat him. The same thing can be said about White-ra beating MMA at IPL3. What I'm trying to say is not that Terran is definitely not OP. It might even be so. It's just that people only look at GSL Code S numbers and conclude T is COMPLETELY OP, without actually looking into the games and players.
On October 21 2011 22:20 Avan wrote: Why do you keep Protoss in the game if it's not supposed to be usable?
Why so much whining? Is Protoss really unusable? All this over the top whining becomes really annoying when you read through this whole thread.
On topic, Question: How do you feel about the skill cap design of the Protoss race? It feels like having a lower skill cap really makes the balacing so much harder, because if you buff something to help professional players the rest of the players suffer so much. Maybe the answer is putting units that scale better with players' skill.
After seeing 21 Terran Players in the GSL Code S and only 2 Protosses, you still have to ask that? And MLG Orlando was sooooo not the tournament to talk about Protoss being cool... Like anyone who attended could beat HuK and/or MC.
They could, but they didn't, did they? So now even when Protoss players win P is still UP? Go figure. But that's not really my point. My point is: if you think P is UP for some reason, then just formulate a question that address this. Most questions here could be summarized as: "OMG, Why ghosts are so imba?"
About the GSL numbers. I think Koreans really prefer Terran and they really make T look good. I wonder why, though, most top foreign players are Z and P. They really just prefer playing the UP races? What's the sense in that?
Wow, you're absolutely correct. All Koreans really prefer Terran. Ghosts and marines are not particularly imba units. All good players picked Terran. Except Nestea, but that's because he doesn't want to practice as much as Terran players.
This logic is ridiculous. I've read this bull shit enough times in this thread.
Well, JonnyLaw pretty much said it all. I think people who are stupid enough to believe that Terran dominance is due to 'cultural differences' or 'players' preferences' don't quite understand how this scene works.
They are professionals, are they not? So, unlike guys like you, who probably 'play just for fun', they make a living out of this game. They are paid to win. If a race has obvious advantages (marines and mules? anyone?) why not use it? Anyway, the point is simple: Protoss is useless at the moment. One CANNOT use foreign tournaments where 2 players have a skill level way above that of all the others to say a race is fine.
To put it simply, in case you don't understand what I'm saying: in terms of balance no tournament matters but the GSL, where the BEST PLAYERS IN THE WHOLE WORLD compete against each other.
Got it? Good.
Name 3 BW high ranking Protoss.
Now try Terran, you could probably name 10.
And lol @ huk and MC have skills way above rest of others. There were 5 or so code S players there and 3-5 code S material players.If anything Huk and MC was far from favorite to win MLG
That's easy. Bisu, Stork, and Jangbi. Terran used to be the underdog back before boxer's era. Your post is half retarded because bringing up BW Protoss has no relevance to SC2 Protoss as far as success is concerned. HuK and MC were definitely not far from favorites, but given the players at MLG Orlando they weren't the only ones capable of taking the tournament.
Are there any unique features (such as gameflow, unit interactions, spectating, etc) of Brood War that SC2 doesn't have that you wish it did? Or are you happy with all of the differences between the 2 games?
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote: It seems like there are 100% protoss players on team liquid nowadays , but you know what? im smarter than that, there is no way there are 100% protoss players on this site, However what can be concluded is that this site has a huge AMOUNT of people that don't actually play the game , They see a whine, and they jump on bandwagon because they want to be part of the "inn crowd"., whining about terran is the "in" thing to do because there are more terrans in code S.
And yet a certain GSL player in Code S said that he feels terran is OP (his words) and that alot of those Terrans don't deserve to be there?
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote:If they actually played the game and faced off against protoss, all these whines about how under-powered the protoss race is complete garbage.
Seems like you're basing this off your own ladder experience, the game is balanced around pro-level, not your skill level.
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote:I will tell you what the hard facts of the matter is, Terran takes the most amount of mechanics /multitasking /micro and speed to play
How far up your ass did you manage to pull this from? Where is your evidence to say that Terrans have the "hardest" everything in the game, If anything it's considered that Terran have the most basic of micro and that appeals to new players.
On October 22 2011 00:45 jinixxx123 wrote:all this whining has got to stop, Its just retarded, i wouldnt be surprised if blizzard cuts short Q& A panel for sc2 because its full of garbage questions .
Yes but most people actually back up their "whining" with evidence, not just post like yours with no facts to back it up and complete bias of one race.
i love how you like to quote players that say something and use it as facts, if you want to go with quotes , lets see
-Sase (who beat bomber at the most recent mlg ) says terran is not overpowered , go to 10:10 in the video clip
-puma at IEM was asked by bitter about terrans doing well, Puma replies that the reason is because Alot of good terran players came together to discuss the game and share ideas
-SlayersTaeja comments after advancing in his Up and Downs Q: What did you think of there being 3 Terrans in your group? A: There were no Protoss so I was happy. Protoss seems overpowered . After they're up to 3 attack upgrades, Colossus melt marines in an instant. Facing them is really demanding,
-polt who said its the race and not the players then proceeded to get knocked out in the first round of GSL by Killer, I guess hes 3 times as bad then right if its the race?
-mc is on record numerous times saying Phenix imba, should we nerf them cause he says that?
and thats just the stuff i dug up from recently, i can dig up more if you want.. you say i dont back up my post with evidence, there is it, what you have to say now?
EPT
