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On October 12 2011 22:55 CatNzHat wrote:
The problem with the mass of terrans in the GSL is the fact that the players can't get knocked out, and the fact that the best players in the world are terrans.
If they made it so around two-thirds of the Code S players would go to up-and-down matches, there wouldn't be huge number of terran players left over from when terran was imba.
That's a very interesting fact! LOL! All the best, most talented players happened to choose Terran, right? How can it be explained otherwise, it's so simple, I don't know why everyone doesn't see this fact!!
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On October 12 2011 22:58 sunman1g wrote:
yes.
Nice post, very enlightening.
I think that Terran is just better than Zerg or Protoss right now. The maps have nothing (or very little) to do with it.
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Hell no. The maps we have now are very varied in size and how they are built, yet we are getting very consistent results in Korea.
Numbers will always speak louder than letters (as long as the numbers are factual and not fabricated) and they have all been saying the same thing since the last balance patch in beta SC2.
But Blizzard is on the right track, any changes they make now will be null and void when the expansion hits and new units turn the game upside down. What you know of SC2 now will forever drastically change once only a few new multiplayer units are introduced.
So no reason to worry, or even make any suggestions. The game's balance will be "reset" once the new units land and their team should focus on balancing the game then.
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Terran was strong in Korea and weak outside in the BW era as well. It's a problem with skill ceilings. As far as game design goes, Terran looks like it makes sense overall, and Protoss is broken in so many ways... Some stuff, in order of the magnitude of the problem imo:
Warpgates are bad because they eliminate the sinews of war and defender's advantage, leading to weaker units to balance it out. It is just that you can get super abused if you don't abuse WG enough.
Sentries are bad for balancing purpose as well because the game is very different with force fields than without, which also leads to P army being too strong sometimes and too weak others. Same for guardian shield vs Terran.
Blink and Charge change the dynamic of the game too much, much more than any speed upgrade or Stim, so again the designers have to make the units weak but not too weak.
Void Rays don't have straight up counters, you have to go low tier units on the ground and hope P doesn't have synergy between the units. Hard to balance, again.
In short Blizzard has created a game with the mentality of "abuse or be abused". The game is unfair in a lot of spots, in favor(and against) of all races, maybe a bit less when it comes to Terran which despite the many all-ins is more robust and solid because it has multiple viable options. Broodwar was the same, probably not to the same extent though. You have to find out what spots favor you the most and try to play the game in order to force those situations. Korean Terrans have been better at it for the most part.
The game is definitely imbalanced, statistics for so many months and games at the highest levels should convince anyone. The fact is Broodwar was the same, with Terran the weakest at the low end and at the same time most titles won in Korea. So this situation, fueled by the skill ceiling problem, may remain the same way for all of SC2. But my point would be that we should first talk about game design and only after that about balance.
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On October 12 2011 21:49 Orcasgt24 wrote:
I think the current map pool for GSL is partially to blame for this. Maps that were Zerg favored (Scrap Station being the main one and a moded Belshir Beach) have been removed from the pool and same with the Protoss homeworld of Jungle Basin. However we still have Xel'naga Fortress which is very terran favored in the line-up along with Duel Sight.
Scrap station was so awful zvt. It's almost impossible for a zerg to get the key fourth base. And stopping a three base zerg as a meching terran is so stupidly easy unless the meching terran makes a mistake.
But back to the op, I think its all on the protoss players to figure it out. Since the beginning of time protoss players sat on there ass until they wanted to attack with their blob. Which worked pretty well for the first year. But now, with the meta game shifting completely, protoss players need a new strategy.
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On October 12 2011 23:11 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 22:55 CatNzHat wrote:
The problem with the mass of terrans in the GSL is the fact that the players can't get knocked out, and the fact that the best players in the world are terrans.
If they made it so around two-thirds of the Code S players would go to up-and-down matches, there wouldn't be huge number of terran players left over from when terran was imba. That's a very interesting fact! LOL! All the best, most talented players happened to choose Terran, right? How can it be explained otherwise, it's so simple, I don't know why everyone doesn't see this fact!!
Can you name a game that supports your point? Its easy to look at a statistic and say wow that shows imbalance but for example there were 5 protoss in code S this season, 1 advanced to Ro16, 1 stayed in code S, and 3 went to up/down.
That sounds like a really bad statistic until you look at the games and realize that Puzzle had MKP beat on a 4 gate then supply blocked himself and fumbled the attack. You cant balance around that and no amount of changes are gonig to fix that. Same thing can be said about genius and Hungun was someone people expected to fall for quite awhile. The only thing about imbalance you can draw from those games is making big mistakes means you lose.
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I think it's a combination of a lot of factors. I honestly don't think that maps are a big reason to this imbalance. When GSL introduced the larger maps, terrans were complaining a lot but have found a way around it. Maps like Steppes of War were truly terran favoured, but I think that the only really terran-favoured map is Xel'Naga Fortress.
I wouldn't mind an all-terran code s if the 32 best players in the world were terran, but it's not like that.
A player like Ensnare, who has been in code s for a long time but hasn't really managed to do anything, should not be there imo. I think mostly the format is to blame, since we've learned from code a that there are players of other races, that are quite good.
I would rather see a change in the GSL format, to make it easier to drop from code s, than more balance changes. As others have said the only place where terran is "imba" is in code s. If terran is so overpowered, shouldn't it be OP in other places as well? In both code a, GSTL and foreign events, the races are much more evenly represented.
I mostly think the format is to blame honestly.
Even though I'm a terran player, I still think there are too many in code s. Would like to see some more Protoss, but I don't think the current code s protoss are the best Korea has to offer. Players like Oz(who did get creamed in the finals, but that might be due to nerves since he played very well in the rest of the tournament), JYP, Sage and possibly Tails(if he can play like he did vs IM) are better players than most of code s toss. I think the code s zergs have earned their place, since every one of them is good.
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I don't think its the maps. And I don't think terran is imbalanced per se. My theory is: Terran is more robust than the other races, and does not as easily fall to cheese/luck/random etc. This, in the long run of a tourney, makes the difference.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
I think it sort of comes down to the matchup. From a Terran perspective, lets have a look at things
vT: For a significant period of time, marine/tank/medivac was the favoured style of play. recently, mech has come forward as well, and the odd few people still go MMM
vZ: Its basically the same as vT, if you think about it. Yes the openers are different, but the mid-game armies, the timing attacks etc are almost the same
vP: Forget exact armies, you make something that involves marauders and ghosts/vikings depending on what you see right?
People are more than welcome to call me out on this, but that's how its felt for me. Now all the Terrans know how to marine/tank by now, and so they're sort of set for 2 of the matchups. The third involves them being slightly more reactionary, but its still a tactic you use in TvT from time to time (MMM) but with added ghosts/vikings
Now lets look at Zerg and Protoss. Won't go into details, but you have different units for all 3 matchups. There are overlaps, but in general there are units that are key in one set, but are barely used in others. Whether that's right or not, for now its the case (once again, I'm only talking mid-game here, where a lot of matches are decided)
I think that Terran has an established setup for the matchups because their current builds for TvT are perfectly viable in the others, but that's not the case the other way round. Sure, you can use a ZvT build against Z or P, but its not as well establish, or is generally not considered as good.
My thoughts
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The reason that there are so many Terrans in Code S right now is from what i understand, a bunch of reasons that compound eachother.
1. Terran is the most played race in Korea.
2. Terran is as of right now designed more fully than the other races.
3. Code S is extremely forgiving. The new players that we should see in Code S cant make it up there because not enough people are allowed to fall out of Code S every season.
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personally no, the close spawns that screwed zergs are gone, as are the bunker wall offs, so its fine
hell i wish i had gsl maps for ladder >_<
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Protoss has become to predictable and easy to counter their timings.
We need a new protoss hero to step up
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Part of the blame maybe, but not all or most of it.
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On October 12 2011 21:51 hahaimhenry wrote:
Crossfire is a really good map for Terran to say the least...
In theory, but obviously not in practice lol. Zergs have a winning record there, despite it looking like an ugly map for them.
OP: I don't think the maps are really to blame. Some will naturally be slightly favored towards one race or another, but I don't think it's causing the heavy racial imbalance in the GSL. Most of us who dislike the GSL map pool think that it's stale; we don't dislike it because it causes Terran to auto-win.
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On October 12 2011 23:47 Hassybaby wrote:
I think it sort of comes down to the matchup. From a Terran perspective, lets have a look at things
vT: For a significant period of time, marine/tank/medivac was the favoured style of play. recently, mech has come forward as well, and the odd few people still go MMM
vZ: Its basically the same as vT, if you think about it. Yes the openers are different, but the mid-game armies, the timing attacks etc are almost the same
vP: Forget exact armies, you make something that involves marauders and ghosts/vikings depending on what you see right?
People are more than welcome to call me out on this, but that's how its felt for me. Now all the Terrans know how to marine/tank by now, and so they're sort of set for 2 of the matchups. The third involves them being slightly more reactionary, but its still a tactic you use in TvT from time to time (MMM) but with added ghosts/vikings
Now lets look at Zerg and Protoss. Won't go into details, but you have different units for all 3 matchups. There are overlaps, but in general there are units that are key in one set, but are barely used in others. Whether that's right or not, for now its the case (once again, I'm only talking mid-game here, where a lot of matches are decided)
I think that Terran has an established setup for the matchups because their current builds for TvT are perfectly viable in the others, but that's not the case the other way round. Sure, you can use a ZvT build against Z or P, but its not as well establish, or is generally not considered as good.
My thoughts
As a zerg player I agree with you bro. This is true, we can't just use the same army in zvt as we do in zvp or zvz most of the time. I do think what you've stated has something to do with terran dominance. As you can practice unit compositions that are more across the board sorta speak. Why i'm trying to get roaches in zvt down >.<
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On October 12 2011 22:13 TigerKarl wrote:
Terran is the best designed race. There's not so much to explore in the other races in terms of combinations, builds and timings. That's why it took a long time to explore terran and why they're exploding at the very top level.
What are you talking about? Terrans have been dominating sind the early beta. What did terran ever explore?
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On October 12 2011 22:11 Gotmog wrote:
How should maps look so that they are good for P>Z>T in that order ?
I am not sure, since it looks like you can either have map that is good for T/P or good for Z ? Meaning, easy expos, barren lands for surrounds etc...
Maybe, by removing any viable elevator play from Terran ? And keeping chokes so P can keep using FF and not get surrounded so easily ?
Not possible. There is no map that disfavors T. PvZ can be quite sensitive to maps. Trying to skew PvZ with a map will screw TvP or TvZ..
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On October 12 2011 23:59 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 22:13 TigerKarl wrote:
Terran is the best designed race. There's not so much to explore in the other races in terms of combinations, builds and timings. That's why it took a long time to explore terran and why they're exploding at the very top level.
What are you talking about? Terrans have been dominating sind the early beta. What did terran ever explore?
actually early beta terrans were awful (im assuming closed beta)
but other than that, they've been pretty much dominating, except maybe march when
GSL code S ro4 had no terrans
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I blame GSL and the Maps. Basically Blizzard must balance for all levels of play. GSL can be very different from other levels and might be left somewhat imbalanced.
The fix is for GSL to pick maps that favor Toss and Zerg.
Regarding "All the best players are terran."
As a viewer I do not care. As a viewer I want to see a diverse set of games, not just TvT every game. I would say make Terran UP enough that these best players who all play Terran either switch races or start to lose.
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On October 12 2011 22:04 Mormagil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:55 Nick_54 wrote:
And no, I think the terran players are just playing better than all the other races right now thanks to their broodwar background or training environment (Slayers/IM house) I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious where you would say the tipping point is. At what point do we finally cave in and say tarren is imba? When Ro8 is 100% tarren instead of merely 75%? When Nestea and DRG join MC down in code B and code S is pure TvT? For myself, I think the maps are certainly a contributing factor... but there is a more fundamental reason we see this imbalance.
Wait so a largely zerg dominant ipl as well as a zerg champion for ipl iem code a and dreamhack means nothing? I mean if were going purely by tournament results everything except code s says balance is not as what all this whining is about. Its funny how people who want to complain can nitpick stats to make their arguments carry more weight.
Its ridiculous to me how much hate gom gets for the state of code s right now. Do terrans flood code a live report threads when it was mostly z and p with only gumiho to root for? Tvt is the most dynamic mirror and provides players with both macro and inventive aggression, something netizens say is fun to watch while timing based attacks and all ins are constantly whined against which is what pvp and zvz mostly ends up being.
There's simply no satisfying the internets sometimes...
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EPT
