[GSL] Can we blame the maps? *possible spoilers* - Page 8

On October 12 2011 21:52 robih wrote:
i dont think so
its just the current state of the game where everyone in korea seems to fistpump when they meet a protoss

On October 13 2011 04:43 Escoffier wrote:
The only reason code S has too many T is because T used to be imba, and now they're not. Unfortunately too little players get kicked out of code S so these terrans stay in code s forever. I heard a rumor that there will be less code S seeds so hopefully this will be fixed

On October 13 2011 04:44 phyren wrote:
I think the wide area behind the main and natural mineral lines in most maps is pretty terran favored. It basically guarantees the drops and banshee harass will always have a safe exit path and can be held over a protoss players neck forever, forcing them to leave units back.

On October 13 2011 04:36 iamke55 wrote:


Terrans should have the lowest winrate in a balanced game because they spend the lowest percentage of their practice time in non-mirror matchups.

On October 13 2011 04:52 TedJustice wrote:
Well, if they really wanted to, they could throw in some really protoss favored maps. I've heard they used to do that in brood war.

On October 13 2011 04:47 NotSorry wrote:


You realize other races can take advantage of that as well, you know things like mutalisk, bane drops, roach drops, infestor drops, zealot/ht drops, warp ins?

On October 13 2011 04:57 Treemonkeys wrote:


Those are actually tech commitments rather than something you can grab while you're teching up and will be useful with or without a successful drop. Terran is just so powerful at controlling the flow of the game and forcing the other races to respond to their tech. Hold off 2 rax followed by hellions at the front door followed by hellions and marines dropped in the main etc. meanwhile terran is safe behind their OP defense and can hardly be touched without going all in. They are way too strong, worst in TvP.

With Z and P - "would it be a good idea to drop this game"

Terran - "why not drop this game?"

On October 13 2011 05:08 WickedBit wrote:
I know I am not the first one saying this but considering the first part of the game is terran focused it just seems that blizzard put a lot more effort on terran than the remaining races.
This makes terran complete and better designed overall. I have given up on game balance at this point since it would mean either removing features from the terran race or adding significant upgrades to other races to be competitive.

Even after 1 year a lot of korean tournaments have terrans dominating, with zerg and protoss sneaking wins in middle due to some abusive timings that have been since nerfed or been figured out. For e.g. MCs wins were dependent entirely on 1/2 base timing attacks which got nerfed now with warpgates/new builds.

Maps will affect balance, but if you see in GSL it usually significantly affects the win rates of ZvP. I haven't done the analysis so far but I'm sure you will find that even on so called zerg favored maps the win rate shift of ZvT will be less than you expect. For e.g. in August GSL on Belshir beach 1.0, it is 2-1 in favor of terran in code S and 2-3 in code A.

I Its not a lot to draw conclusions but overall its my impression that in ZvT there is no real zerg favored map. Once terran get some time to play with a new map they discover some other feature of their race that brings them back to the dominating ways.

On October 13 2011 05:11 bucckevin wrote:



So factory and starport is not a tech commitment? Protoss shouldn't make anything besides gateway units?

On October 13 2011 02:46 EctoMimed wrote:

Thank god... This is what people really need to consider.
Although this is related to player skill in some regard, it simply sounds better then a blanket statement like "protoss players just aren't as good at the moment." However, it is more of a proof of such a statement. Incontrol is someone who, in my opinion, is hurting the developement of the metagame by talking about imbalance so soon since "the decline" of protoss players.

Statistics can mean a lot but in a case study of balance in a game with all these thousands of variables there really is no way to be sure that the problem is balance.

Remember 3-6 months ago when Protoss was considered imbalanced and Zerg was underpowered? Blizzard's patches where VERY minor but Zerg metagame completely changed to adapt to the problems with the ZvP matchup. Buffing the fungal growth then nerfing it back didn't change anything other then plant a seed that Infestors might be the answer to a lot of Zerg's problems. It turned out that Zerg's needed to use new strategies and unit compositions to cope, not that Zerg needed patches.

Incontrol, Naniwa, and a large portion of the community seem to believe that the statistics tell the whole story when really, as Adreme pointed out, you have to look at the individual games.

Even if you argue statistics are the end all of discussion like a lot of players seem to do, you should take in to account the SHORT amount of time that Protoss's numbers have been down. The strategies really haven't shifted much since then for Protoss players, and to me it just feels like the metagame is moving slower for the Protoss players because a lot of the top players relied on really good timings that got figured out.


Finally, just remember how long Zerg was in a recession comparatively before they finally "figured it out." Protoss players just need more innovators, and more pros that try the new builds that people come up with. There are a lot of lesser Protoss players who use builds that are crazy scary, but the players themselves just haven't had as much success for whatever mechanic or technical reason. Inka's (spelling?) recent PvZ builds make it look so easy, and not gimicky. If a tip top pro picked up some of these strategies I immagine the metagame could easily shift drastically.

I don't play terran and I think I would be biased to comment on Terran however so I won't touch that matchup :p

On October 13 2011 05:11 bucckevin wrote:



So factory and starport is not a tech commitment? Protoss shouldn't make anything besides gateway units?