On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
All 3 were like sub 40% BW players, your nitpicking.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok you might have an argument with Sangho, but Tester? Really? MVP would have wiped the floor with Tester.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Tester? lol
Tester and Sangho were a lot worst in 2010 than MVP. seriously, Tester? xDDD
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Uhh.. no SC2 pro with a BW history will ever say that SC2 is better.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Uhh.. no SC2 pro with a BW history will ever say that SC2 is better.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
Game design is not solely represented by professional players - they, to an extent, represent balance (even then it's iffy because they play to win, not to play a "perfected" game). That is one of many, many factors that define the merits of a game. It's delusional to think a 10 year old game with buggy unit pathing, mediocre programming, and a rough interface can even be compared to SC2. I'm not talking about how much "Skill a game takes." Anyways, that's not even my main point. I won't be comparing the games at all because there is no reason to entertain the debate.
My main point is just that MVP should not be the player to compare BW pros who switch over to. The comparison itself is unnecessary to any BW player.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was [mechanics].
By all modern standards, SC2 is a [new] game [ ------ ]. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it. [ ------- ]
modified some of the above
"better" is subjective in many, many ways... It is certainly a new game though.
Nada attends school and still able to play the game well( at least maintain high level of skill ) due to having many years of playing with very high mechanics.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
Game design is not solely represented by professional players - they, to an extent, represent balance (even then it's iffy because they play to win, not to play a "perfected" game). That is one of many, many factors that define the merits of a game. It's delusional to think a 10 year old game with buggy unit pathing, mediocre programming, and a rough interface can even be compared to SC2. I'm not talking about how much "Skill a game takes." Anyways, that's not even my main point. I won't be comparing the games at all because there is no reason to entertain the debate.
My main point is just that MVP should not be the player to compare BW pros who switch over to. The comparison itself is unnecessary to any BW player.
Why must it always come to this?
And why is it "delusional" to "even compare" SC2 to BW? Because it's 10 years old and hence not as polished? I'm not sure you have an idea how ridiculous you are sounding atm
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
Game design is not solely represented by professional players - they, to an extent, represent balance (even then it's iffy because they play to win, not to play a "perfected" game). That is one of many, many factors that define the merits of a game. It's delusional to think a 10 year old game with buggy unit pathing, mediocre programming, and a rough interface can even be compared to SC2. I'm not talking about how much "Skill a game takes." Anyways, that's not even my main point. I won't be comparing the games at all because there is no reason to entertain the debate.
My main point is just that MVP should not be the player to compare BW pros who switch over to. The comparison itself is unnecessary to any BW player.
Why must it always come to this?
And why is it "delusional" to "even compare" SC2 to BW? Because it's 10 years old and hence not as polished? I'm not sure you have an idea how ridiculous you are sounding atm
Arguing with someone who has years of emotional attachment to an old game is pointless. It's like arguing about why a newer Zelda game is better than Ocarina of Time, a game that changed its genre and one that you probably grew up with. If you preface it with "better for its time," then that's debatable. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
You're going to use games from 2008 to support your argument? I guess LiveForever is as good as MMA cuz they both beat Nestea huh?
On October 02 2011 20:18 Kyuki wrote: Ofc it is? A game is more than it's upgraded interface and graphics, which you seem to not understand.
There are objective standards that show progression in game development and improvement in computer programming.
Complexity / Depth is one aspect of the game - every other aspect of the game is outdated. I understand what a game is - probably more than most people on this forum - considering I have experience with computer programming.
Game development has come a loooooooooooooooong way since Broodwar. It shows with SC2.
On October 02 2011 20:18 Kyuki wrote: Ofc it is? A game is more than it's upgraded interface and graphics, which you seem to not understand.
There are objective standards that show progression in game development and improvement in computer programming.
Complexity / Depth is one aspect of the game - every other aspect of the game is outdated. I understand what a game is - probably more than most people on this forum - considering I have experience with computer programming.
Game development has come a loooooooooooooooong way since Broodwar. It shows with SC2.
GAMEPLAY is the only factor. This is not deluded nostalgia have a look at my join date.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Uhh.. no SC2 pro with a BW history will ever say that SC2 is better.
Got proof?
Sotg ep. 50 Edit: also how do you want me to prove it lol?
EPT
