On October 02 2011 20:23 red4ce wrote: wrong thread
Agreed. I did not mean to stir up an argument. I was responding to someone who misinterpreted game theory / game development standards. Anyone who suggests that SC2 skill ceiling is achievable in the near future (or, for that matter ever really) does not understand how the genre works.
On October 02 2011 20:18 Kyuki wrote: Ofc it is? A game is more than it's upgraded interface and graphics, which you seem to not understand.
There are objective standards that show progression in game development and improvement in computer programming.
Complexity / Depth is one aspect of the game - every other aspect of the game is outdated. I understand what a game is - probably more than most people on this forum - considering I have experience with computer programming.
Game development has come a loooooooooooooooong way since Broodwar. It shows with SC2.
GAMEPLAY is the only factor. This is not deluded nostalgia have a look at my join date.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Uhh.. no SC2 pro with a BW history will ever say that SC2 is better.
Got proof?
Sotg ep. 50
Pathing, programming, interface, and graphics all affect the gameplay experience - as does depth. What you are probably referring to is depth / complexity - one aspect of game critique.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
Game design is not solely represented by professional players - they, to an extent, represent balance (even then it's iffy because they play to win, not to play a "perfected" game). That is one of many, many factors that define the merits of a game. It's delusional to think a 10 year old game with buggy unit pathing, mediocre programming, and a rough interface can even be compared to SC2. I'm not talking about how much "Skill a game takes." Anyways, that's not even my main point. I won't be comparing the games at all because there is no reason to entertain the debate.
My main point is just that MVP should not be the player to compare BW pros who switch over to. The comparison itself is unnecessary to any BW player.
Why must it always come to this?
And why is it "delusional" to "even compare" SC2 to BW? Because it's 10 years old and hence not as polished? I'm not sure you have an idea how ridiculous you are sounding atm
Arguing with someone who has years of emotional attachment to an old game is pointless. It's like arguing about why a newer Zelda game is better than Ocarina of Time, a game that changed its genre and one that you probably grew up with. If you preface it with "better for its time," then that's debatable. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.
It's a fair comparison, while some of the stuff in sc:bw is like it is because of limitiations of its time it doesn't mean that it is necessarily worse. To make an exaggerated example if someone created a golf stick that made all golf pro's regularly hit hole in ones would that make the sport more interesting or fun to watch? Just because the units in sc2 move more responsively doesn't mean it makes the game better, most people who has actually spent a lot of time with both games would probably argue otherwise.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
Game design is not solely represented by professional players - they, to an extent, represent balance (even then it's iffy because they play to win, not to play a "perfected" game). That is one of many, many factors that define the merits of a game. It's delusional to think a 10 year old game with buggy unit pathing, mediocre programming, and a rough interface can even be compared to SC2. I'm not talking about how much "Skill a game takes." Anyways, that's not even my main point. I won't be comparing the games at all because there is no reason to entertain the debate.
My main point is just that MVP should not be the player to compare BW pros who switch over to. The comparison itself is unnecessary to any BW player.
Why must it always come to this?
And why is it "delusional" to "even compare" SC2 to BW? Because it's 10 years old and hence not as polished? I'm not sure you have an idea how ridiculous you are sounding atm
Arguing with someone who has years of emotional attachment to an old game is pointless. It's like arguing about why a newer Zelda game is better than Ocarina of Time, a game that changed its genre and one that you probably grew up with. If you preface it with "better for its time," then that's debatable. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.
It's a fair comparison, while some of the stuff in sc:bw is like it is because of limitiations of its time it doesn't mean that it is necessarily worse. To make an exaggerated example if someone created a golf stick that made all golf pro's regularly hit hole in ones would that make the sport more interesting or fun to watch? Just because the units in sc2 move more responsively doesn't mean it makes the game better, most people who has actually spent a lot of time with both games would probably argue otherwise.
I understand where you're coming from. I don't care which game people like more. I don't want to change anyone's opinion.
That doesn't change the fact that there are well defined standards for game critique, development, and programming. Most people who spend time making games would disagree.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
Game design is not solely represented by professional players - they, to an extent, represent balance (even then it's iffy because they play to win, not to play a "perfected" game). That is one of many, many factors that define the merits of a game. It's delusional to think a 10 year old game with buggy unit pathing, mediocre programming, and a rough interface can even be compared to SC2. I'm not talking about how much "Skill a game takes." Anyways, that's not even my main point. I won't be comparing the games at all because there is no reason to entertain the debate.
My main point is just that MVP should not be the player to compare BW pros who switch over to. The comparison itself is unnecessary to any BW player.
Why must it always come to this?
And why is it "delusional" to "even compare" SC2 to BW? Because it's 10 years old and hence not as polished? I'm not sure you have an idea how ridiculous you are sounding atm
Arguing with someone who has years of emotional attachment to an old game is pointless. It's like arguing about why a newer Zelda game is better than Ocarina of Time, a game that changed its genre and one that you probably grew up with. If you preface it with "better for its time," then that's debatable. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.
It's a fair comparison, while some of the stuff in sc:bw is like it is because of limitiations of its time it doesn't mean that it is necessarily worse. To make an exaggerated example if someone created a golf stick that made all golf pro's regularly hit hole in ones would that make the sport more interesting or fun to watch? Just because the units in sc2 move more responsively doesn't mean it makes the game better, most people who has actually spent a lot of time with both games would probably argue otherwise.
I understand where you're coming from. I don't care which game people like more. I don't want to change anyone's opinion.
That doesn't change the fact that there are well defined standards for game critique, development, and programming. Most people who spend time making games would disagree.
luckily, no one cares which is a better game as defined by "critique, development, and programming." as a competitive esport and casual game, broodwar is better and more fun than sc2 in every aspect. a well designed, polished turd made with cutting edge techniques is still a turd.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
[---] unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
Those still exist in the game. They even went backwards with the Tab key/Unit priorities ( SC2 to Wc3 ). Tabbing also no longer highlights ( makes the box slightly bigger ) the group and also shows the incorrect spells on the side if you group multiple unit types in one key while tabbing through them all / It'll show irrelevant portraits ). Lack of AI ( they don't maintain their proximity if given a move command ). Units will automatically clump to meet their own demise. Casting via portraits ( the bottom middle of your screen that shows all units currently selected ) is also no longer in existence ( this is also backwards, too, since you could do that in Wc3 ). Clicking on any of the portraits pertaining to a unit type also won't highlight them ( also backwards in this, too ). Air transports and the Load Unit function also can't be cast on units currently in selection/target all portraits ( which is also backwards since it can be done in Wc3 ).
By your standards, this new game is bad since the interface is still "unpolished" and lacks many functions. Interfaces and such don't make a game "better."
Also, Forgg's played the game for a year and is in KR GM ( KR > NA/EU anyways ). It's not like he isn't able to keep up with other players in a late game situation when the game makes it easier to do so.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
Game design is not solely represented by professional players - they, to an extent, represent balance (even then it's iffy because they play to win, not to play a "perfected" game). That is one of many, many factors that define the merits of a game. It's delusional to think a 10 year old game with buggy unit pathing, mediocre programming, and a rough interface can even be compared to SC2. I'm not talking about how much "Skill a game takes." Anyways, that's not even my main point. I won't be comparing the games at all because there is no reason to entertain the debate.
My main point is just that MVP should not be the player to compare BW pros who switch over to. The comparison itself is unnecessary to any BW player.
Why must it always come to this?
And why is it "delusional" to "even compare" SC2 to BW? Because it's 10 years old and hence not as polished? I'm not sure you have an idea how ridiculous you are sounding atm
Arguing with someone who has years of emotional attachment to an old game is pointless. It's like arguing about why a newer Zelda game is better than Ocarina of Time, a game that changed its genre and one that you probably grew up with. If you preface it with "better for its time," then that's debatable. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.
It's a fair comparison, while some of the stuff in sc:bw is like it is because of limitiations of its time it doesn't mean that it is necessarily worse. To make an exaggerated example if someone created a golf stick that made all golf pro's regularly hit hole in ones would that make the sport more interesting or fun to watch? Just because the units in sc2 move more responsively doesn't mean it makes the game better, most people who has actually spent a lot of time with both games would probably argue otherwise.
I understand where you're coming from. I don't care which game people like more. I don't want to change anyone's opinion.
That doesn't change the fact that there are well defined standards for game critique, development, and programming. Most people who spend time making games would disagree.
Then what is the point of your claim that "By modern standards SC2 is better?" Game developers may say that SC2 has better ai and graphics than BW but does this equate to your claim that SC2 is better by 'modern standards' (wut?)? Who cares what the producer thinks of the product... what matters is what the consumers think.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable.
Sigh.
Brood War has an extremely polished in-game interface (as was the standard for all Blizzard games since pretty much forever). The differences between BW and SC2 interfaces aren't a result of improved quality, but of design decisions. Adding shortcuts and a simplified input system is a game design decision - it has nothing to do with quality of interface. They could have decided that you can only have 1 unit/building selected at a time (WC2 style), and if the game was designed around it, the interface would potentially be just as good.
There's nothing buggy about A* pathfinding, it works exactly as intended. Again, it's mostly a design decision. SC2's group flocking algorithm has more than a fair share of issues in RTS gameplay as well. While the unit groups may find their way around easier in general, the way in which they move (clumped up in a ball) is normally not something that any RTS player will want. The amount of effort player has to do to compensate for the drawbacks of either algorithm is just about the same - only SC2 didn't yet develop to the point where unit splitting/spreading will be absolutely critical and game deciding (but it will).
Finally, I've no idea what your "modern" standards are, so I'll only say that the majority of 2005-onwards AAA titles are in fact NOT pushing the boundaries when it comes to game design and are in many ways inferior to their prequels and predecessors. This is done on purpose, because they're not designed to be good, they're designed to appeal (and be sold) to millions of people which normally requires more than a few compromises that are inherently bad for the game's quality and longevity. Especially a game which is designed to be challenging and competitive.
On October 02 2011 19:46 Loodah wrote: The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
Skill ceiling is a bad term - it implies that both games are equal until one hits a "skill ceiling" and the other can progress beyond that point. This is in fact not how it works, since as you say no game will ever have players come close to the hypothetical ceiling.
How it works is that a game that requires a higher degree of mechanical skill to control properly will inevitably progress faster and differentiate between players better. Every good, long standing competitive video game in history has been about fast reactions, input precision, attention to detail etc. because this is where the skill separation happens and hard work and training pays off, and this is where the satisfaction comes from.
In order to be a long term success and, a competitive RTS game needs to "push" the two basic human skills - multitasking and manual dexterity - to the absolute limit as a requirement to succeed on ANY skill level, and SC2 game design really just doesn't seem to do that to a sufficient degree. It's often more rewarding to just pick up on the latest timing attack / unit composition flavor in the ever-shifting metagame and abuse the shit out of it.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable.
Sigh.
Brood War has an extremely polished in-game interface (as was the standard for all Blizzard games since pretty much forever). The differences between BW and SC2 interfaces aren't a result of improved quality, but of design decisions. Adding shortcuts and a simplified input system is a game design decision - it has nothing to do with quality of interface. They could have decided that you can only have 1 unit/building selected at a time (WC2 style), and if the game was designed around it, the interface would potentially be just as good.
There's nothing buggy about A* pathfinding, it works exactly as intended. Again, it's mostly a design decision. SC2's group flocking algorithm has more than a fair share of issues in RTS gameplay as well. While the unit groups may find their way around easier in general, the way in which they move (clumped up in a ball) is normally not something that any RTS player will want. The amount of effort player has to do to compensate for the drawbacks of either algorithm is just about the same - only SC2 didn't yet develop to the point where unit splitting/spreading will be absolutely critical and game deciding (but it will).
Finally, I've no idea what your "modern" standards are, so I'll only say that the majority of 2005-onwards AAA titles are in fact NOT pushing the boundaries when it comes to game design and are in many ways inferior to their prequels and predecessors. This is done on purpose, because they're not designed to be good, they're designed to appeal (and be sold) to millions of people which normally requires more than a few compromises that are inherently bad for the game's quality and longevity. Especially a game which is designed to be challenging and competitive.
On October 02 2011 19:46 Loodah wrote: The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
Skill ceiling is a bad term - it implies that both games are equal until one hits a "skill ceiling" and the other can progress beyond that point. This is in fact not how it works, since as you say no game will ever have players come close to the hypothetical ceiling.
How it works is that a game that requires a higher degree of mechanical skill to control properly will inevitably progress faster and differentiate between players better. Every good, long standing competitive video game in history has been about fast reactions, input precision, attention to detail etc. because this is where the skill separation happens and hard work and training pays off, and this is where the satisfaction comes from.
In order to be a long term success and, a competitive RTS game needs to "push" the two basic human skills - multitasking and manual dexterity - to the absolute limit as a requirement to succeed on ANY skill level, and SC2 game design really just doesn't seem to do that to a sufficient degree. It's often more rewarding to just pick up on the latest timing attack / unit composition flavor in the ever-shifting metagame and abuse the shit out of it.
Its one of the best summarization of BW/SC2 ive seen.
BW "crappy" interface wasnt bound by technology but by decision, older games than BW didnt have any caps on how many units you can box etc. It was artistic/gameplay decision to put limits. But people who didnt play various RTSs dont really know... C&C, AOE, TA all worked differently, interface was not really were the technology capped. Maybe resolution, but still the point stands.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable.
Sigh.
Brood War has an extremely polished in-game interface (as was the standard for all Blizzard games since pretty much forever). The differences between BW and SC2 interfaces aren't a result of improved quality, but of design decisions. Adding shortcuts and a simplified input system is a game design decision - it has nothing to do with quality of interface. They could have decided that you can only have 1 unit/building selected at a time (WC2 style), and if the game was designed around it, the interface would potentially be just as good.
There's nothing buggy about A* pathfinding, it works exactly as intended. Again, it's mostly a design decision. SC2's group flocking algorithm has more than a fair share of issues in RTS gameplay as well. While the unit groups may find their way around easier in general, the way in which they move (clumped up in a ball) is normally not something that any RTS player will want. The amount of effort player has to do to compensate for the drawbacks of either algorithm is just about the same - only SC2 didn't yet develop to the point where unit splitting/spreading will be absolutely critical and game deciding (but it will).
Finally, I've no idea what your "modern" standards are, so I'll only say that the majority of 2005-onwards AAA titles are in fact NOT pushing the boundaries when it comes to game design and are in many ways inferior to their prequels and predecessors. This is done on purpose, because they're not designed to be good, they're designed to appeal (and be sold) to millions of people which normally requires more than a few compromises that are inherently bad for the game's quality and longevity. Especially a game which is designed to be challenging and competitive.
On October 02 2011 19:46 Loodah wrote: The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
Skill ceiling is a bad term - it implies that both games are equal until one hits a "skill ceiling" and the other can progress beyond that point. This is in fact not how it works, since as you say no game will ever have players come close to the hypothetical ceiling.
How it works is that a game that requires a higher degree of mechanical skill to control properly will inevitably progress faster and differentiate between players better. Every good, long standing competitive video game in history has been about fast reactions, input precision, attention to detail etc. because this is where the skill separation happens and hard work and training pays off, and this is where the satisfaction comes from.
In order to be a long term success and, a competitive RTS game needs to "push" the two basic human skills - multitasking and manual dexterity - to the absolute limit as a requirement to succeed on ANY skill level, and SC2 game design really just doesn't seem to do that to a sufficient degree. It's often more rewarding to just pick up on the latest timing attack / unit composition flavor in the ever-shifting metagame and abuse the shit out of it.
Please dont mislead ppl here with your biased opinions.
I played BW almost seriously from 2002-2006. During the first few years, BW timing attack is much worse than the current SC2 timing attack. And the balance is even much much worse due to the map. There are thousands of strategies and nobody have figured it out which ones are actually crap. One base play is pretty standard. I remember one player use 1 base fast lurker to 2 base all in to storm the tournament and nobody there even figured it out how to deal with it.
From a Historical view, SC2 is actually pretty damn good. The strategies are evolving very very fast which normally take for years in BW. Micro is also evolving at a unbelievable level which in BW, it takes many years to invent one micro trick (like the muti-drop/mutalisk kiting). So SC2 has indeed better shape as a new game.
Please stop trolling ppl that BW is like a fantastic game. It is a great game in current view. But in many years earlier, it is not that great compared with the same age of SC2.
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable. The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
That aside, Sangho and Tester beat both Flash and Jaedong on televised matches. Obviously at the time of the switch they weren't at as high a level, but neither was MVP.
Someone needs to link you to the epic write up on TL of why BW design completely shits on SC2 game design up the ass.
It's quite well articulated.
"By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game" . . just ask any of the pros who think that SC2 is too volatile and doesn't reward strong execution very much.
Game design is not solely represented by professional players - they, to an extent, represent balance (even then it's iffy because they play to win, not to play a "perfected" game). That is one of many, many factors that define the merits of a game. It's delusional to think a 10 year old game with buggy unit pathing, mediocre programming, and a rough interface can even be compared to SC2. I'm not talking about how much "Skill a game takes." Anyways, that's not even my main point. I won't be comparing the games at all because there is no reason to entertain the debate.
My main point is just that MVP should not be the player to compare BW pros who switch over to. The comparison itself is unnecessary to any BW player.
Why must it always come to this?
And why is it "delusional" to "even compare" SC2 to BW? Because it's 10 years old and hence not as polished? I'm not sure you have an idea how ridiculous you are sounding atm
Arguing with someone who has years of emotional attachment to an old game is pointless. It's like arguing about why a newer Zelda game is better than Ocarina of Time, a game that changed its genre and one that you probably grew up with. If you preface it with "better for its time," then that's debatable. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.
It's a fair comparison, while some of the stuff in sc:bw is like it is because of limitiations of its time it doesn't mean that it is necessarily worse. To make an exaggerated example if someone created a golf stick that made all golf pro's regularly hit hole in ones would that make the sport more interesting or fun to watch? Just because the units in sc2 move more responsively doesn't mean it makes the game better, most people who has actually spent a lot of time with both games would probably argue otherwise.
I understand where you're coming from. I don't care which game people like more. I don't want to change anyone's opinion.
That doesn't change the fact that there are well defined standards for game critique, development, and programming. Most people who spend time making games would disagree.
luckily, no one cares which is a better game as defined by "critique, development, and programming." as a competitive esport and casual game, broodwar is better and more fun than sc2 in every aspect. a well designed, polished turd made with cutting edge techniques is still a turd.
If you think it's a turd, why the FUCK are you posting in an SC2 thread?
On October 02 2011 17:51 Loodah wrote: Why is everyone comparing MVP to all the BW players that switched? He wasn't the best to switch. Sangho and Tester were both far better
Ok... let's discuss this shall we...
Professional BW has a HUGE skill-ceiling which has not even been reached yet. The skill level of players back in 2007 is far from that of today. Although Nada and July have won heaps of medals, they won it a few years back, when the skill-level of players are simply not today's standard. At the time of their switch to SC2 in 2010, Nada / July could barely qualify for Starleagues and rarely represented their teams for proleague. If they were to have continued playing SC:BW, they would get rofl-stomped by most S-class players (Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy? Hydra? Sun? Horang2?).
MVP on the other hand, switched in 2010 when he was just beginning to shine. He had made the deepest OSL run for his career, being stopped in his tracks by no other than FlaSH himself. He had just won against the top protosses (albeit with insane-hard-to-stop two base timing pushes). He won against the likes of Stork and Best in 2010. The last time July / Nada / Tester / SangHo showed any good results...... ??? don't even know. Tester took a game of FlasH back in the day, but yea.
Just a side note -
Part of the "HUGE skill ceiling" was buggy unit pathing / movement and Lack of polished interface / controls.
By all modern standards, SC2 is a better game - maybe not relative to its time period - but otherwise, that's not really debatable.
Sigh.
Brood War has an extremely polished in-game interface (as was the standard for all Blizzard games since pretty much forever). The differences between BW and SC2 interfaces aren't a result of improved quality, but of design decisions. Adding shortcuts and a simplified input system is a game design decision - it has nothing to do with quality of interface. They could have decided that you can only have 1 unit/building selected at a time (WC2 style), and if the game was designed around it, the interface would potentially be just as good.
There's nothing buggy about A* pathfinding, it works exactly as intended. Again, it's mostly a design decision. SC2's group flocking algorithm has more than a fair share of issues in RTS gameplay as well. While the unit groups may find their way around easier in general, the way in which they move (clumped up in a ball) is normally not something that any RTS player will want. The amount of effort player has to do to compensate for the drawbacks of either algorithm is just about the same - only SC2 didn't yet develop to the point where unit splitting/spreading will be absolutely critical and game deciding (but it will).
Finally, I've no idea what your "modern" standards are, so I'll only say that the majority of 2005-onwards AAA titles are in fact NOT pushing the boundaries when it comes to game design and are in many ways inferior to their prequels and predecessors. This is done on purpose, because they're not designed to be good, they're designed to appeal (and be sold) to millions of people which normally requires more than a few compromises that are inherently bad for the game's quality and longevity. Especially a game which is designed to be challenging and competitive.
On October 02 2011 19:46 Loodah wrote: The skill ceiling of any moderately complex RTS is impossible to reach. Nobody is even close to reaching the SC2 skill ceiling - and nobody will ever reach it.
Skill ceiling is a bad term - it implies that both games are equal until one hits a "skill ceiling" and the other can progress beyond that point. This is in fact not how it works, since as you say no game will ever have players come close to the hypothetical ceiling.
How it works is that a game that requires a higher degree of mechanical skill to control properly will inevitably progress faster and differentiate between players better. Every good, long standing competitive video game in history has been about fast reactions, input precision, attention to detail etc. because this is where the skill separation happens and hard work and training pays off, and this is where the satisfaction comes from.
In order to be a long term success and, a competitive RTS game needs to "push" the two basic human skills - multitasking and manual dexterity - to the absolute limit as a requirement to succeed on ANY skill level, and SC2 game design really just doesn't seem to do that to a sufficient degree. It's often more rewarding to just pick up on the latest timing attack / unit composition flavor in the ever-shifting metagame and abuse the shit out of it.
Please dont mislead ppl here with your biased opinions.
I played BW almost seriously from 2002-2006. During the first few years, BW timing attack is much worse than the current SC2 timing attack. And the balance is even much much worse due to the map. There are thousands of strategies and nobody have figured it out which ones are actually crap. One base play is pretty standard. I remember one player use 1 base fast lurker to 2 base all in to storm the tournament and nobody there even figured it out how to deal with it.
From a Historical view, SC2 is actually pretty damn good. The strategies are evolving very very fast which normally take for years in BW. Micro is also evolving at a unbelievable level which in BW, it takes many years to invent one micro trick (like the muti-drop/mutalisk kiting). So SC2 has indeed better shape as a new game.
Please stop trolling ppl that BW is like a fantastic game. It is a great game in current view. But in many years earlier, it is not that great compared with the same age of SC2.
SC2 has the advantage of having the base concepts of heavy, macro-oriented gameplay a norm, thus that emergent gameplay has to emerge not as a completely new concept, but within a well-understood framework of timings, tactical positioning, and economic balance; which was not well understood in the days of BoxeR and YellOw. Furthermore, many of the hard lessons in mapmaking in BW easily carry over to SC2 (emphasis on balancing distance and defensibility, base saturation, openness, and features), giving SC2 a leg up in that respect as well.
What we are seeing in SC2 is the historical equivalent of it being in the iloveoov to Savior period, where an emphasis in macro play has been established, but where most stable and viable builds have not been fully explored. This results in the wild swings in professional-level play, an emphasis on powerful timing attacks, and a feeling out of strategies, partly because of these swings in player style and response to the same information, and partly because of the instability of the game itself because of the balance tweaks and inevitable expansion changes that will come, which however has no parallel in BW.
One of my favorite players from back in the day. His timing attacks were always so brutal and well thought out.
Can't wait to see some of his play in tournaments, I have been downloading Raptor replays for a while now, but all the ones I could find were very standard, well executed rushes. Can't wait until he has some of his own builds to mess around with.
That being said, his mechanics are amazing, micro is sick nasty, and his timings are awesome. I mean, there is a CLOCK in this game, his timings will be perfect now that he doesn't have to count seconds in his head anymore.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/2/25/ForGG.jpg)
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