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On October 01 2011 22:19 Klamity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 20:01 NoobSkills wrote:On October 01 2011 19:47 RvB wrote:On October 01 2011 05:32 Nouar wrote:On October 01 2011 05:18 RvB wrote:On October 01 2011 03:24 Spinoza wrote:
So the highest ranked BW pro to switch to sc2 to date is now confirmed as fOrGG. This could be either a switch of epic proportions or an equally epic fail. And how would we know? Given his stature, anything less than one or several major tournament titles is a disappointment, right?
fOrGG, like Boxer, NaDa and July, has gone through the most competitive e-sport ever - Broodwar - to win a major title, albeit in his case only once. My personal guess is the chemistry in KT Rolster did him in. This kid is however only 20yrs old or so, has one Major title to his resume (he killed Kal, Flash and Jaedong to get it) and played a lot of BW games against the very very best up until his retirement.
If you think the Woongjin captain would feild MVP against fOrGG in a hypothetical series at that time when both were active, MVP would likely lose. A hypothetical universe has a foggy shape by its very nature, but is still interesting because all options can be explored without impunity: how would Brazilian Pele match up with Messi of Argentina say, or Superman vs Batman.
The only telemetry we have to work with are the actual accomplishments of players. And this telemetry says that fOrGG is a genuinely more accomplished player in BW than MVP ever was irrespective of MVPs accomplishments in SC2. Conversely, MVP is the norm of accomplishment in SC2 while fOrGG has no norm at all in SC2 (not counting ladder). Well, are all accomplishments if existing, equal then? No, they are not. Recent accomplishments take precedence over distant ones.
The similarity assumption underlies the next step: it is that qualities overlap such that "Similar experiences can guide future reasoning, problem solving and learning". In other words that if your "reasoning, problem solving and learning" can lead you to win Arena MSL in 2008, beating on the way as it were, Kal (protoss), Flash (terran) and Jaedong (Zerg), in that order, at the same time they could all be argued as the best of their respective races, then you should be regarded as a real contender in SC2 too. Why? Because of the similarity assumption, which is, I grant, an abstraction, but real much in the same way that shadows are real.
But there is practical qualitative supporting evidence for this assumption too: all the GSL champions have had career's in BW previously, there are no GSL champions entirely absent a BW career, however limited it might seem after the fact. All the former BW burnouts past their prime, NaDa, July and Boxer are still making waves as solid A or S class players. There is clearly a shadow in play here. But also that recent accomplishments are more important than distant ones.
However much I love SC2, the quantitative and qualitative data suggest there is a significant skill deficit versus top BW players assuming the similarity assumption ( I am repeating myself because this is important god damn it).
fOrGG will be a datapoint to further our understanding of this complex issue.
I highly doubt fOrGGs games will be boring though, given his BW record. GG HF GL forgg isn't nearly as good as he was in his league run. By stating it like you are it looks like he could beat jaedong and flash consistently while he really wasn't close to that. fOrGG record vs Jaedong : 4-1 + 10-04-27 Shinhan09-10 Proleague Roadrunner Win + 09-03-22 Shinhan 2009 Winners .. Medusa Loss + 08-07-26 Arena MSL Tiamat Win + 08-07-26 Arena MSL Othello Win + 08-07-26 Arena MSL Colosseum Win vs Flash : 4-6 + 10-08-12 Bigfile MSL Polaris Rhapsody Loss + 10-08-12 Bigfile MSL Odd-Eye 3 Loss + 10-08-05 Bigfile MSL Fighting Spirit Loss + 09-02-08 Shinhan 2009 Winners .. Rush Hour 3 Loss + 08-07-17 Arena MSL Colosseum Win + 08-07-17 Arena MSL Othello Loss + 08-07-17 Arena MSL Tiamat Win + 08-07-17 Arena MSL Athena Win + 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague Othello Win + 07-10-27 Shinhan07 Proleague R2 Python Loss vs Bisu : 6-3 + 10-10-16 Shinhan10-11 Proleague Circuit Breaker Loss + 08-08-08 WCG2008 Korea Blue Storm Win + 08-08-08 WCG2008 Korea Othello Win + 07-03-10 2007 2nd KeSPA Cup Tau Cross Win + 06-12-23 SKY2006 Proleague R2 Longinus Win + 06-11-29 ODT2006-2 Sin Peaks of Baekdu Win + 06-06-28 2006 Summer ODT Prelims Sin Pioneer Period Loss + 06-06-28 2006 Summer ODT Prelims 815 III Loss + 06-06-28 2006 Summer ODT Prelims Rush Hour 3 Win vs Stork : 2-9. So a combined 16-19 against TaekBangLeeSsang ?! And 14-10 against Bisu/JD/Flash ? YES he could beat Flash and JD consistently, please check your facts before supposing anything. Right it might be a few years ago... but name some players having a 50% record against TBLS please ? Okay let's analyze this information like I said he was good in his league run but not nearly as good after that so we can substract those games. forgg v jaedong: 1-1 forgg v flash: 1-5 forgg v Bisu: 6-3 forgg v stork 2-9 forgg v tbls: 10-18 36% winrate forgg v Bisu/JD/Flash: 8-9 0.47% where most of his wins were against bisu and 5 of his games in 2006 which is when they both werent that good.( it would still give him 4-1 though which is nice ). Now that still looks quite decent and like I said he wasn't nearly as good as in his league run which is what really matter so lets look at his recent games, all his games in 2010 were losses except against jaedong. I'm pretty sure he is just pointing out that ForGG has the ability to do well. Hell after his MSL run he really fell off and rarely would play a macro game. But I also don't see the point to debate any of this either. If he has the desire and practices hard he can and will win. If he doesn't practice then he will have results similar to Yellow Boxer and Nada in this game. Just how it goes. Hardly fair to make that comparison. Boxer is touted as one of the hardest students of this game. Yellow seems to be doing it for fun, and Nada takes it seriously,GF and school considered.
I said that poorly though the end result is still true. I think Boxer's cap was always Boxer's cap. SC2 was evolved compared to SCBW because of SCBW's metagame. When SC2 game out none of them could keep up with the training for a new game compared to the kids that play now. They can play games ALL day and really learn the game. I think however that Forgg has a really good chance of making a splash with innovation of a solid expansion based build if he chooses to really hammer out the game.
Boxer - hard student sure, but now his responsibility to his team makes it impossible to be a top player.
Nada - Doesn't live at the team house. Probably has more responsibility to be a coach rather than a player.
Yellow - from his series he might still come in and play decent. He was joking at the beginning, but it looked like he just wasn't "getting" the game yet, but had put forth a very good effort at the end. Only 1 month and did well in Code B (i think).
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I don't think Boxer does much coaching if any. In an interview, Jessica said that he plays so much he doesn't have time to coach, and that his outlook is "If my players practice 10 hours a day, I have to practice 20 hours".
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On October 01 2011 03:24 Spinoza wrote:
The similarity assumption underlies the next step: it is that qualities overlap such that "Similar experiences can guide future reasoning, problem solving and learning". In other words that if your "reasoning, problem solving and learning" can lead you to win Arena MSL in 2008, beating on the way as it were, Kal (protoss), Flash (terran) and Jaedong (Zerg), in that order, at the same time they could all be argued as the best of their respective races, then you should be regarded as a real contender in SC2 too. Why? Because of the similarity assumption, which is, I grant, an abstraction, but real much in the same way that shadows are real.
there is a little misinformation here; Kal is not one of the best protosses, not even in top 5 at all. never been.
 Bisu is the best protoss in BW that is still around and has always been..
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On October 01 2011 23:04 Reyis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:24 Spinoza wrote:
The similarity assumption underlies the next step: it is that qualities overlap such that "Similar experiences can guide future reasoning, problem solving and learning". In other words that if your "reasoning, problem solving and learning" can lead you to win Arena MSL in 2008, beating on the way as it were, Kal (protoss), Flash (terran) and Jaedong (Zerg), in that order, at the same time they could all be argued as the best of their respective races, then you should be regarded as a real contender in SC2 too. Why? Because of the similarity assumption, which is, I grant, an abstraction, but real much in the same way that shadows are real.
there is a little misinformation here; Kal is not one of the best protosses, not even in top 5 at all. never been. Bisu is the best protoss in BW that is still around and has always been..
Follow BW much? Guess who won the protoss of the year award 2010?
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Best of luck to him in the Code A qualifiers. He is pretty high on the KR ladder, so he should be eligible, right?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 01 2011 20:41 baubo wrote:If their respective abilities at the end of their BW careers are any indication, forgg's potential is certainly a cut above MVP.
forgg is not mechanically better. that's his big weakness in fact, lack of lategame power
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On October 02 2011 00:13 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 20:41 baubo wrote:On October 01 2011 20:03 oneofthem wrote:
not better than mvp If their respective abilities at the end of their BW careers are any indication, forgg's potential is certainly a cut above MVP. forgg is not mechanically better. that's his big weakness in fact, lack of lategame power
In SC2 he always plays macro games and is really good at it. (Sase said so yesterday on his stream, he also said ForGG will be a champion soon)
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On October 01 2011 23:20 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 23:04 Reyis wrote:On October 01 2011 03:24 Spinoza wrote:
The similarity assumption underlies the next step: it is that qualities overlap such that "Similar experiences can guide future reasoning, problem solving and learning". In other words that if your "reasoning, problem solving and learning" can lead you to win Arena MSL in 2008, beating on the way as it were, Kal (protoss), Flash (terran) and Jaedong (Zerg), in that order, at the same time they could all be argued as the best of their respective races, then you should be regarded as a real contender in SC2 too. Why? Because of the similarity assumption, which is, I grant, an abstraction, but real much in the same way that shadows are real.
there is a little misinformation here; Kal is not one of the best protosses, not even in top 5 at all. never been. Bisu is the best protoss in BW that is still around and has always been.. Follow BW much? Guess who won the protoss of the year award 2010?
yeah lol he is also one of the 6 dragons so ofc he was in the top5 best protosses.
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On October 02 2011 00:13 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 20:41 baubo wrote:On October 01 2011 20:03 oneofthem wrote:
not better than mvp If their respective abilities at the end of their BW careers are any indication, forgg's potential is certainly a cut above MVP. forgg is not mechanically better. that's his big weakness in fact, lack of lategame power
How the heck do you know all this?
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On October 02 2011 00:16 Choboo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 00:13 oneofthem wrote:On October 01 2011 20:41 baubo wrote:On October 01 2011 20:03 oneofthem wrote:
not better than mvp If their respective abilities at the end of their BW careers are any indication, forgg's potential is certainly a cut above MVP. forgg is not mechanically better. that's his big weakness in fact, lack of lategame power In SC2 he always plays macro games and is really good at it. (Sase said so yesterday on his stream, he also said ForGG will be a champion soon)
Every ex-BW player is 'good at macro games', it's just standard. It would be pretty embarrassing if you could keep money low in BW but not in SC2.
On October 02 2011 00:19 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 00:13 oneofthem wrote:On October 01 2011 20:41 baubo wrote:On October 01 2011 20:03 oneofthem wrote:
not better than mvp If their respective abilities at the end of their BW careers are any indication, forgg's potential is certainly a cut above MVP. forgg is not mechanically better. that's his big weakness in fact, lack of lategame power How the heck do you know all this?
Cause of his many years of games? That is why he did so many timing attacks instead of long macro games.
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On October 02 2011 00:13 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 20:41 baubo wrote:On October 01 2011 20:03 oneofthem wrote:
not better than mvp If their respective abilities at the end of their BW careers are any indication, forgg's potential is certainly a cut above MVP. forgg is not mechanically better. that's his big weakness in fact, lack of lategame power
I dunno ForGG still had pretty good TvT near his retirement and theres simply nothing as exemplary of mechanical ability as BW TvT thats . In any case he should tear up SC2.
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First MSL I watched was the 2008 one. ForGG had everyone's jaws dropping with the finals result. Cool to see him staying relevant, will root for him in SC2.
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France13022 Posts
On October 02 2011 00:08 Bobster wrote:
Best of luck to him in the Code A qualifiers. He is pretty high on the KR ladder, so he should be eligible, right?
I heard that anyways you can be eligible even if you aren't top 200 on ladder, like if you are part of a team/in a teamhouse or foreigner.
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On October 02 2011 00:36 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 00:08 Bobster wrote:
Best of luck to him in the Code A qualifiers. He is pretty high on the KR ladder, so he should be eligible, right? I heard that anyways you can be eligible even if you aren't top 200 on ladder, like if you are part of a team/in a teamhouse or foreigner.
iirc from the yellow show it said you had to be a certain number of points in master league. I'm sure it changes every qualifier though because of bonus pool inflation.
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On October 02 2011 00:36 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 00:08 Bobster wrote:
Best of luck to him in the Code A qualifiers. He is pretty high on the KR ladder, so he should be eligible, right? I heard that anyways you can be eligible even if you aren't top 200 on ladder, like if you are part of a team/in a teamhouse or foreigner.
I knew the exception for non-Koreans who want to try but didn't know about the team house rule.
In any case, if he's top 50 on ladder, he does fulfill the requirements and doesn't need exceptions. 
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On October 02 2011 00:19 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 00:16 Choboo wrote:On October 02 2011 00:13 oneofthem wrote:On October 01 2011 20:41 baubo wrote:On October 01 2011 20:03 oneofthem wrote:
not better than mvp If their respective abilities at the end of their BW careers are any indication, forgg's potential is certainly a cut above MVP. forgg is not mechanically better. that's his big weakness in fact, lack of lategame power In SC2 he always plays macro games and is really good at it. (Sase said so yesterday on his stream, he also said ForGG will be a champion soon) Every ex-BW player is 'good at macro games', it's just standard. It would be pretty embarrassing if you could keep money low in BW but not in SC2. Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 00:19 s4life wrote:On October 02 2011 00:13 oneofthem wrote:On October 01 2011 20:41 baubo wrote:On October 01 2011 20:03 oneofthem wrote:
not better than mvp If their respective abilities at the end of their BW careers are any indication, forgg's potential is certainly a cut above MVP. forgg is not mechanically better. that's his big weakness in fact, lack of lategame power How the heck do you know all this? Cause of his many years of games? That is why he did so many timing attacks instead of long macro games.
Well, you don't know.. you just assume he did that because he cannot macro. I call that total BS though...
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Just watch some vods of his games, sure he was famous for his timing attacks but it was not for the lack of his ability to macro, lol. Also, Kal not a top Protoss? Come on.
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I always thought Kal was one of the Dragons - he must have been good, no?
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It doesn't mean he CANNOT macro for fuck sake. Why do people on here just go one extreme or the other. He was not particularly known for great macro IN BW that's all - that doesn't mean he was bad at all. His lategame was maybe weaker than early and mid, however in SC2 this wont be the case because everything is easier. He was an A-team progamer; he's got better mechanics/macro than everyone but MvP (and probably better than him) so it doesn't matter what he was considered in BW.
Players who do a lot of timings or all-ins generally want to avoid longer games i think that much is obvious. TvP is a difficult matchup for pro's so he often did them.
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EPT
