Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)
On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote: Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
I think MvP is just a *tad* bit better as a premier korean pro-team than M, but if your blatant nationalism carries you far enough into a delusion that he had better practice than he could get with coL.MvP, then there is no way to reason with you. and btw, ToD is now FnaticMSI lol.
On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote: Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
I think MvP is just a *tad* bit better as a premier korean pro-team than M, but if your blatant nationalism carries you far enough into a delusion that he had better practice than he could get with coL.MvP, then there is no way to reason with you. and btw, ToD is now FnaticMSI lol.
is he even interested in going korea then? because if that was the case, it'd be a bit of a no brainer
On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote: Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote: Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
I'm pretty sure Drewbie beat Tarson and Diestar in the IPL and I'd say Minigun is comparable to Adelscott, Oh and ToD left Millenium. Not going to say either team trumps the other, just pointing out that they're fairly comparable.
Also, teams don't always focus on practicing with each other and Complexity has access to the MVP training roster.
On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote: Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
Neither
DongRaeGu
Seriously. Did people forget that Complexity and MVP are brothers now?
You get Koreanzzz.
Plus, Complexity has far more resources at its disposal than Millenium.
On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote: Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
Neither
DongRaeGu
Seriously. Did people forget that Complexity and MVP are brothers now?
You get Koreanzzz.
Plus, Complexity has far more resources at its disposal than Millenium.
Couldn't agree more.
Millenium may be a powerhouse in Europe (even that is quesionable), but there is no comparison between them and coL. The fact that coL and MVP are together is reason enough.
I'd be really interested in hearing if Stephano himself has said anything yet, since this whole thing is his fault anyways. (i.e. signing a contract with a team and then going back on it is obviously not either of the team's fault, imo)
On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote: Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
Neither
DongRaeGu
Seriously. Did people forget that Complexity and MVP are brothers now?
You get Koreanzzz.
Plus, Complexity has far more resources at its disposal than Millenium.
Couldn't agree more.
Millenium may be a powerhouse in Europe (even that is quesionable), but there is no comparison between them and coL. The fact that coL and MVP are together is reason enough.
On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote: to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Reading is hard, amirite? The original post clearly said that Stephano had no interest in going to korea.
On September 21 2011 05:32 Kerwinius wrote: I'd be really interested in hearing if Stephano himself has said anything yet, since this whole thing is his fault anyways. (i.e. signing a contract with a team and then going back on it is obviously not either of the team's fault, imo)
Agreed. It would be nice to hear Stephano's statement. I hope it's a bit more transparent and helpful than Millenium's as well x.x
That being said, if Millenium tried to get Stephano to re-sign with them while already having the knowledge that Stephano had just signed on with Complexity, then I could also see Millenium coming out as shady too.
Stephano is clearly the one at fault, and I don't really see how Complexity can be blamed at all. I still have no idea about Millenium though, considering how useless their "statement" was.
On September 20 2011 23:28 Elinda wrote: Am i the only one thinking that there is too much drama about this contract?
I mean Stephano changed his mind, he clearly did a mistake but where are col damages? I mean it's not as if Stephano broke the contract 2/3 month after it started, col hasn't spent 1$ yet.
We oftenly hear in esport and sport that a player quit his team before the end of his contract and nobody never make a drama about it even if it's much more scandalous than stephano's case.
Well, in conclusion i think that there were unprofessionnal manners between stephano, col and Millenium but nothing that deserve this much.
PS: Sorry for my english :s
Says the French person who makes an account on TL just for this thread.
Come on now, Stephano signed a LEGAL contract and backed out. You cannot do that, I do not care where you live. Do not be so ignorant because he is a native to your country. If he was from the US and did this to a French team I would be on the French team's side because it is situations like this that are going to keep e-sports out of mainstream.
You do not see professional athletes switching teams after signing a contract do you?
Didn't think so.
Fact is you don't know french law. You can back out of any contract you signed if you do it soon enough.
Plus everyone taking side for Mil or Col is pretty stupid in my mind. Both of them are doing Damage control right now, no matter what they say on both side; I don't care. No one posting here fully know what happen. One thing is certain this is bad for stephano's reputation, that's all.
Why do the french even have such a law for contracts?
Contracts should be binding from the moment they are signed. In the US, you can even have a binding agreement before a contract is signed if a promise is made and the other party can demonstrate reliance on that promise.
On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote: Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross
Dear uninformed citizen of the internet,
It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts.
...
I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different...
teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism.
No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody.
How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly?
A little perspective here, people.
-Cross
(P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.)
As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them.
But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages.
Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe.
As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*.
*excluding gay loopholes in French law
Edit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future.
How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/
Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit.
The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law).
The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter.
Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works...
Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts (especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract?
(Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract).
I still think it was inappropriate rather than tongue-in-cheek, but whatever, I'll drop it.
The trial period disposition is actually to the advantage of the employer more than the employee (as I explained in an earlier post). It is certainly not a loophole, and presenting it as such makes you look ignorant of how the whole French labour laws work. Also regarding your personal question : I have recently used a rarer and somewhat more complicated variant of this disposition, known as "période probatoire", against my employer (which once again, is the exception rather than the norm), so I made some research on the subject.
To answer your question, which is more interseting than the two paragraphs I just wrote :
1. As coL said themselves, Stephano appears as a contractor rather than an employee. French law does not recognize the notion of contractors, the only legal status is that of employee. This would lead the judge to void the contract in its entirety, or to requalify it as a CDD (fixed-term employment contract).
2. From what I gathered, the contract is written in English. I don't think that French is mandatory for all kinds of contracts, but it certainly is for employment contracts (source). Stephano could argue that he misunderstood some critical part of the contract or another, due to the language difference. Considering that Stephano has a fairly good level in English, the judge could simply order to have the contract rewritten in French and uphold its applicability (barring other points), but he could also void it entirely.
3. Complexity made an 18-year-old kid sign a contract at 3am withough legal counsel. While any single part of this is not a problem in itself (18 y/os sign work contracts every day, I sign pretty much all of my papers without legal counsel, and certainly agreements can be concluded at 3am), the conjunction of the three makes for something that is not ethically acceptable in France, or most of western Europe really. One of the parties has visibly less power (Stephano is a kid, Complexity is a company led by a lawyer), and signed under pressure (seriously, 3am ? Complexity could certainly wait a little bit). Said party realized its mistake, not after some inexcusable delay, but the morning after. It is *guaranteed* than a French judge would entirely void the contract on that basis. I realize this may be impossible to understand from the US, where you can pretty much sign anything anytime and anyhow (not being judgemental, merely stating facts). But really, there is hardly any doubt on the result of a lawsuit, where Complexity to file one in France.
Now, the other question is, is Stephano allowed to get out this contract ? As you very rightly noted, a significant number of my compatriots (although not all...) have been excessively fast and inaccurate in their discussion of this topic.
1. If the contract is requalified as a CDD, and in the absence of a trial period (which is optional and must be written - it wasn't in this case, so it doesn't exist), it is pretty hard for him to get out. I have never been under such contracts, so I do not know all the details, but I know they are more restrictive than CDIs (no-term employment contracts), both for the employer and the employee.
2. If the contract is requalified as a CDI (this is the type of contract Millenium offered Stephano - it is the most advantageous for the employee), and once again in the absence of a trial period, Stephano could leave in one month (the exact time length may be stated specifically in a given contract, but since the original was not a CDI at all it certainly didn't plan for that option, so it would go by the default of one month).
3. If the contract is entirely voided, well, Stephano doesn't need to get out of it, as he was never actually in it. As I said earlier, this outcome is almost guaranteed in a French court (not that Complexity would like either of the previous two ones either, those employment contracts are guaranteed to bite you in the ass if you do not have some representation in France).
4. Another very distinct possibility would be for the judge to consider the original contract as some kind of image rights contract, rather than a work contract. I really have no idea how those things go, so I can't comment on the consequences, but I mention the possibiltiy for the sake of exhaustivity. However, I find it highly unlikely, because Complexity's contract certainly has the functionality of an employment contract, despite having inadequate form.
Thoughtful response. Thanks for this.I'm amazed at how many people feel entitled to an opinion despite being ignorant of French contractual law (and the difference between France and the U.S. in this regard). This has been a learning experience for me and I don't see how my opinion is valid until I understand more of the specifics.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it true, that even if you lose a case in France, you can try to get your case for European tribunal in Haag, where European Union laws are used instead of French? Maybe that's just for the cases when you are going against the state though, not sure.
On September 21 2011 06:05 KingRajesh wrote: Why do the french even have such a law for contracts?
Contracts should be binding from the moment they are signed. In the US, you can even have a binding agreement before a contract is signed if a promise is made and the other party can demonstrate reliance on that promise.
Because in France, law protect the weaks. in a work contract, the weak is the worker. The boss can break a contract by firing you in the probation period of time, and the worker can break the contract too because its just fair. Im pretty sure you can understand that working in bad conditions can be a reason using this right to break the contract.
Ammanas your wrong european law has a superior value to every national law exept the constitution, if you lose a case you have to try every national institution before calling an european tribunal. but no european would never say that you can't apply french law
"1. If the contract is requalified as a CDD, and in the absence of a trial period (which is optional and must be written - it wasn't in this case, so it doesn't exist), it is pretty hard for him to get out. I have never been under such contracts, so I do not know all the details, but I know they are more restrictive than CDIs (no-term employment contracts), both for the employer and the employee."
actually, in france, you can break a CDD during probation time OR because you found a CDI. col contract looks like a cdd, because its for 12 months. and millenium offers a CDI. but im not sure about what really is col's contract reguarding french law.
EPT
