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On September 21 2011 00:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 00:36 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 00:34 Ryder. wrote:On September 21 2011 00:33 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 00:28 Tula wrote:On September 21 2011 00:16 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 00:04 Ryder. wrote:On September 21 2011 00:01 Merlimoo wrote:
Not the mention that he has previously said to Millenium that he will stay with them.
Even in the US, an oral contract, is a contract. So the Millenium one was beforehand and a work contract is not valid if the employee is already under contract. Case closed. Saying you will stay with them does not make it a contract :/ you need an intention to be legally bound, sufficient agreement on all important terms (consensus) and consideration (both parties need to gain something out of it). Please stop spamming this thread with nonsense :/ It's actually the one sensible thing he said : Stephano and M had an oral agreement about Stephano signing in the short future an employment contract with M, whose terms were already fixed. This might very well be enough to render coL contract void under any law, french or US one (even if I doubt it, but as we know, opinion != fact). So M didn't do anything wrong apart from fueling some internet flame (and coL didn't do anything wrong either, only part at fault is Stephano) sorry but no, at least not under European Law or French law. Stephano's statement that he would be staying with Millenium is a statement of intent, it is not a contract. For an oral contract to exist you'd need such a statement, the above mentioned consensus and consideration. Usually in sports (and e-sports) such statements of intent are the basis for a negotiation, the player would say something like: "I'd like to stay here" then the club (organization, whatever) would reply with: "great we can offer you this and that". If he was fine with it he'd take it, otherwise he'd ask for some time to consider his options. If you read me carefully, you would see I wasn't sure it would hold either. I was just saying it's a possibility. Noone knows exactly what was sealed between M and Stephano beforehand. If it was strong enough (hands shaked over a written exemplary of the contract and promise to sign it a few days later), maybe it would hold. It's a matter of perspective, and I'm sure you understand why M prefers to see all this from theirs. I'm sure if that was the case then [M] would have stated this straight away, since it is essentially a 'get out of jail free card' for them and Stephano. Taken from the M statement, highlights on what I think precisely say that :
As you may now know, it has been announced yesterday that Stephano had been hired by team Complexity, and a few hours later, that he had finally decided to sign a permanent position contract with us, Millenium, under conditions previously fixed with him (without any intermediate overbidding).
Although we are very confident that, from a legal point of view, Millenium isn’t violating any applicable rule or law, we would also like to emphasize our good will to see this situation solved the right way.
The question is, how truthful is that statement? I mean, if that was the case, why did Stephano sign with Complexity at all, if he had already agreed to terms with Millenium? On top of that, why would they have waited to release that news, rather than come out with it at the very start of all this conflict. It seems, from my point of view, like Millenium is just trying to find a loophole out of this.
Because he is rather young and immature and he took a hasty decision. Extremely surprising considering the pressure he was on and the stakes  Millenium is just trying to protect their player. Discrediting it with an open statement but hiring him anyway is somewhat difficult to do.
Yes, he is at fault, yes he should be blamed for that, maybe sanctioned even if the reputation loss (and the level drop that will go with it) is already enough of a punishment imho. But to me M looks quite clean in this story (apart maybe as I said already the first statement and the hasty comments about coL contract)
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people should quit calling people at the age of 18 young and immature, there is a reason why they are considered adults at that age. sure you still do a silly thing or two, but at that age you can expect them to make the right decisions when it is important... <.<
edit: this comes from somebody who passed the age of 18 btw and can reflect back.
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On September 21 2011 01:13 JustPassingBy wrote:
people should quit calling people at the age of 18 young and immature, there is a reason why they are considered adults at that age. sure you still do a silly thing or two, but at that age you can expect them to make the right decisions when it is important... <.<
edit: this comes from somebody who passed the age of 18 btw and can reflect back.
I'm 30, so yeah, I can reflect back as well, I was nowhere near mature around 18 to make that kind of decision The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less true : at the age of 18 you often (I'll admit, not always) lack the background and maturity to deal with this kind of stuff. Which doesn't mean you'll do something wrong all the time btw, it's just this time it happens, and it has to happen with a big organization involved and a lot of visibility. When you turn 18 you don't magically grow a brain and gain 10 years of experience.
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On September 21 2011 01:13 JustPassingBy wrote:
people should quit calling people at the age of 18 young and immature, there is a reason why they are considered adults at that age. sure you still do a silly thing or two, but at that age you can expect them to make the right decisions when it is important... <.<
edit: this comes from somebody who passed the age of 18 btw and can reflect back.
We could save a lot of money on law enforcement if we "expected" everyone past some certain arbitrary number to make all the right decisions.
You can't just lump everyone into one large group. There are just as many people who make bad decisions at 18 as there are who make great ones. All you have to do is look at sports and see all the athletes who fuck up their lives when they seemingly have everyone right going for them.
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so much for stephano, once this blows over he will be out even though he is really good he shouldn't have done this, he should have stayed with CoL and then gone back to Millenium. There was no point in pissing the team off. That or he needs to seriously apologize and ask for forgiveness for people to be willing to sponsor him.
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On September 21 2011 01:24 daviday wrote:
Hello there,
The situation is pretty simple.
Lwl said that everything was done overnight. Basicly there was talk between stephano and complexity for quite some time and counteroffers by millenium.
This is proven by statement of Jason from Complexity quoting stephano " i changed my mind ".
So basicly , making an offer at 5PM and making him sign right away is just nor really professional from Complexity. As the Last offer was made overnight , its clear that millenium had no idea about it. Why ? ( When you try to recrut a player from ANOTHER team and ANOTHER country and dont want to have this kind of thing hapen you just dont make them sign overnight and annouce it right away that just common sens... )
Its simple and i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. That prove that they didnt knew shit about that last offer.
Second point :
Why would stephano leave a team such as Millenium with tons of great players , for One like Complexity with only low-pro... only for money ? Probably... Or to be the star of a team where he have 10 times the level of his teamate ? I dont think that ideal for complexity.
Last thing , as for complexity having more money that millenium or making stephano travel alot... we'll see about that when ATLEAST one of their player come to play a tourney in europe..
Also stephano explicitly said that he DOES NOT WANT to go to korea on long term. ( unlike ToD )
.. i cant see stephano loosing to mutch here..
He will be going back so his team , with former team mate , with people whom he trust and when his 1 year contract will be over.. he will have NO PROBLEM finding another team if he wants too. Cause no team would pass on stephano he is to good , even after this drama. But anyway in 1 year everyone will have forget about that.
Last but not least , great move from millenium witch are sure to keep him 1 whole years :p
You posted the same thing in two threads, also you're making huge assumptions here that are unfounded. Stephano could have left for the money?
Also if negotiations were over a long period of time how was Stephano pressured to sign within one day?
I'm not even going to bother answering the rest, you're just trolling here =/
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On September 20 2011 20:02 EtohEtoh wrote:
they should cut Stephano in half and give each a piece
I still say this is the best suggestion. Let a French Canadian do the cutting.
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What we dont know:
1. What the "contract" he "signed" with CoL looks like.
2. What the "contract" he "signed" with Mill before looks like.
3. What the "contract" he now "signed" with Mill looks like.
4. What was "communicated" between the two teams before the "signing(s)"
5. What Stephano said to CoL/Mill (at any given point in time, just pick one you like or you heard somebody say anything about)
What we know:
1. Mistakes were made, by (add "AND/OR/NOT") Stephano/CoL/Mill
2. All parties think they made no or neglectable mistakes
3. there was some kind of action at 3AM some days ago
What doesn't make any sense:
1. Speculating about what is and what if and whatever, since we don't know anything, and we are too smart for that, aren't we?
What will happen due to this incident:
1. Players will be more careful when signing contracts
2, Teams will be more careful when giving contracts
3. Stephano will play for Mill
4. This thread will go on for 100+ more pages
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What assumption are unfounded ? Im summerazing everything that has been said by millenium mannager and that dont go against the version of complexity. I'm not sure what you are talking about..
Also if negotiations were over a long period of time how was Stephano pressured to sign within one day?
I dont see how its hard to understand... This is an offer then a counter offer. The only thing to take in account if , Do millenium where aware of the LAST offer from Complexity? If they were , as you are saying , why would they wait for them to annonce stephano all over the internet to finally keep him ?
Thats a very simple question where i cannot see anyother answer than " Millenium had no idea of the last offer ".
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I think it's as simple as this. If we want e-sports to be a serious thing, and if in this case coL has a legally binding contact with Stephano which he has decided not to fulfill, they should sue the hell out of him. There are huge money involved and they should simply sue the fuck out of him. If this is correct and if he has signed a contract but then decided to not uphold his commitments, he's lost a fan.
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This happened with a young French footballer once. You may have heard of him ....Thierry Henry. Which was sorted out by FIFA in the end. As esports continues to grow there will be a need for an independent international body at some time to deal with disputes like this rather than legal threats which will go nowhere.
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On September 21 2011 01:56 Tryxtira wrote:
I think it's as simple as this. If we want e-sports to be a serious thing, and if in this case coL has a legally binding contact with Stephano which he has decided not to fulfill, they should sue the hell out of him. There are huge money involved and they should simply sue the fuck out of him. If this is correct and if he has signed a contract but then decided to not uphold his commitments, he's lost a fan.
I doubt sueing will get you anywhere theres always a cooling off period on a contract. I dont know about France but an employment contract here isnt binding till after a few weeks and either party can end it during that period. Add to that the legal minefield of people being able to live and work where they want in Europe (the argument used for Bosman) then I would save your money.
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On September 21 2011 01:46 hegeo wrote:
What we dont know:
1. What the "contract" he "signed" with CoL looks like.
2. What the "contract" he "signed" with Mill before looks like.
3. What the "contract" he now "signed" with Mill looks like.
4. What was "communicated" between the two teams before the "signing(s)"
5. What Stephano said to CoL/Mill (at any given point in time, just pick one you like or you heard somebody say anything about)
What we know:
1. Mistakes were made, by (add "AND/OR/NOT") Stephano/CoL/Mill
2. All parties think they made no or neglectable mistakes
3. there was some kind of action at 3AM some days ago
What doesn't make any sense:
1. Speculating about what is and what if and whatever, since we don't know anything, and we are too smart for that, aren't we?
What will happen due to this incident:
1. Players will be more careful when signing contracts
2, Teams will be more careful when giving contracts
3. Stephano will play for Mill
4. This thread will go on for 100+ more pages
The last point is the one I believe the most in.
edit: OH SHIT NOOOO, 3000th post wasted for THAT? DAMNIT!
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On September 21 2011 00:28 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 00:25 Merlimoo wrote:On September 21 2011 00:22 Ryder. wrote:On September 21 2011 00:16 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 00:04 Ryder. wrote:On September 21 2011 00:01 Merlimoo wrote:
Not the mention that he has previously said to Millenium that he will stay with them.
Even in the US, an oral contract, is a contract. So the Millenium one was beforehand and a work contract is not valid if the employee is already under contract. Case closed. Saying you will stay with them does not make it a contract :/ you need an intention to be legally bound, sufficient agreement on all important terms (consensus) and consideration (both parties need to gain something out of it). Please stop spamming this thread with nonsense :/ It's actually the one sensible thing he said : Stephano and M had an oral agreement about Stephano signing in the short future an employment contract with M, whose terms were already fixed. This might very well be enough to render coL contract void under any law, french or US one (even if I doubt it, but as we know, opinion != fact). So M didn't do anything wrong apart from fueling some internet flame (and coL didn't do anything wrong either, only part at fault is Stephano) As far as I know that wouldn't hold; 'signing in the short future' is too vague, for a contract to exist you need to agree on all important details such as the time, what is to be provided, how they are to be paid ect. Just by talking about forming a contract doesn't form one, and I'm 99% sure that it doesn't prevent you from forming other contracts. The guy who said he should have just asked coL to be released has a really good point lol. Due to the nature of his contract there is hardly an incentive for coL to keep him there against his will, considering that coL hadn't really invested much into it yet. But just walking away was a bad idea IMO http://www.ehow.com/facts_5562377_verbal-agreement-legally-binding.htmlEvery contract is invalid if another one is already in place. The contractor should certified that is not the case usually. Sorry, but where is the evidence that he was actually already in a contract with [M]? As far as I know there is no evidence to suggest this, and nobody is actually trying to argue this.
We are talking internet here.. what passes for evidence is wikipedia and gossip.
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Lawyer here. Without knowing any of the facts of the situation, international contract cases can be ridiculously expensive to litigate, which is probably what coL is 'considering' when they say they are considering legal action. Even if they win, they are down 5 figures with a pissed off player who doesn't want to play for them.
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On September 21 2011 03:43 Manlots wrote:
Lawyer here. Without knowing any of the facts of the situation, international contract cases can be ridiculously expensive to litigate, which is probably what coL is 'considering' when they say they are considering legal action. Even if they win, they are down 5 figures with a pissed off player who doesn't want to play for them.
College student here.
coL is not going to fight this.
Even if they win, its going to take 4-5 months, and is going to cost more than what they were going to pay Stephano, and even if they win, they are going to have to pay Stephano whatever they are offering him afterwards.
Take the loss and move on, because trying to get this settled in court is only going to cost a ton of money and you will lose most of the year.
All of the fault lies with Stephano imo.
The organizations blaming eachother are stupid, how about blaming the player who signed with 2 teams.. ?
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It looks like coL.MvP got another one 
due to the fact this new player is protoss and looking forward to patch 1.4 coL is suffering a lot by that exchange.
Millenium now has to pay the difference between Naniwas and Stephanos tourney winnings directly to coL until 1.5 or Hots releases.
simple SC2 laws this is xD
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Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
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On September 21 2011 04:21 ArcticRaven wrote:
Any declarations by Stephano yet ?
And, to people astonished by his staying with [M], there's no way such a promising player would leave that kind of powerhouse (ToD, Adelscott, Tarson...) to join a semi-pro team like Col, even though he's more paid. Plus he already said he isn't interested in going to Korea.
Let's be honest : who do you prefer as a training partner ? Adelscott or CatZ ?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's just no possible comparison.
But I'm going to wait for Stephano's point of view to make an opinion.
Col is also in partnership with MVP and Stephano could go to the MVP team house in Korea if he wished. Tarson or DRG? Adelscott or Genius?
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EPT
