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On September 20 2011 23:27 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:24 mechavoc wrote:On September 20 2011 22:59 Merlimoo wrote:
It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, I was thinking the very same thing about the aw shucks he didn't mean to sign it, he is just a kid, it was late, he didn’t have a good night sleep, he didn’t sign with an EU approved felt pen made in France and dipped in Ink from Portugal so it means nothing apologists  If you want to quote, have the honesty to quote everything or signal that it was cut. Congratz! You've level up in "Mainstream media ninja technic"!
I apologize I don't think I edited out anything of importance so here is the complete quote. I will Bold the part I removed as I didn't think it had anything to do with his point.
It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, Durp! Durp! Maybe it's because I'm not native and that I'm english is really bad... Too bad then.
I will stop this conversation, before I get banned for being too mean in a try to educate people.
(edit for spelling)
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On September 20 2011 23:34 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:32 rO_Or wrote:
Irregardless of law and who is right or wrong legally, don't people (French included) feel that this whole situation really hurts French E-sports and it's future ability to grow? Every other big sc2 team looking to grow internationally is going to avoid french players like the plague if contracts are allowed to be voided after signing. Obviously everyone has to respect French law and realize that this situation may be 100% legal but Mill must see that this situation will stifle their relations with foreign teams quite a bit. And that would be fine if they had no intention of going international but from their statements it seems that they desire to grow. IMO, it won't change anything. It's like this is the first time that is has happened in the world. And you world still have grown, doesn't it ? Just stop of being scared of everything.
Wait what? I'm just saying that in the future, other teams looking to acquire foreign players will avoid French players because they can void their contracts. I understand that this is legal in France, there is nothing wrong with that but from an international standpoint, I don't think many other countries handle contracts the same way. While it may be 100% legal, it doesn't mean it is the most productive course of action.
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On September 20 2011 23:31 leo23 wrote:
complexity terrible management... how can they allow this to happen?
...What? How? What are you talking about?
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On September 20 2011 23:32 rO_Or wrote:
Irregardless of law and who is right or wrong legally, don't people (French included) feel that this whole situation really hurts French E-sports and it's future ability to grow? Every other big sc2 team looking to grow internationally is going to avoid french players like the plague if contracts are allowed to be voided after signing. Obviously everyone has to respect French law and realize that this situation may be 100% legal but Mill must see that this situation will stifle their relations with foreign teams quite a bit. And that would be fine if they had no intention of going international but from their statements it seems that they desire to grow.
This is an interesting question, i think that within 2 or 3 month all this shit will be quite forgotten, the Drama will be past.
Are our laws making big business avoiding France ? I don t think so. You can't break ANY contract, anyway, and it's a general problem, for instance : CoL has no means too OBLIGATE a player to play his best even if it's written in the contract and will eventually release him if he does shit.
I think that because of this our image has been hurt but that all the reasonable and smart people will see through this and it won't affect that much our e-sport scene.
Recruitment is about the player not about the nation were he comes from.
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On September 20 2011 23:28 Elinda wrote:
We oftenly hear in esport and sport that a player quit his team before the end of his contract and nobody never make a drama about it even if it's much more scandalous than stephano's case.
In this case there is often a clause in the contract that they have to pay x amount of money to terminate there contract early so there is no drama as all of it is set in stone. If a sports player backed out of a contract without paying there fine in this case or grievous misconduct on the part of the contractor you can dam well bet there is going to be drama and legal action.
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You're embarassing yourself
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On September 20 2011 23:28 Elinda wrote:
Am i the only one thinking that there is too much drama about this contract?
I mean Stephano changed his mind, he clearly did a mistake but where are col damages? I mean it's not as if Stephano broke the contract 2/3 month after it started, col hasn't spent 1$ yet.
We oftenly hear in esport and sport that a player quit his team before the end of his contract and nobody never make a drama about it even if it's much more scandalous than stephano's case.
Well, in conclusion i think that there were unprofessionnal manners between stephano, col and Millenium but nothing that deserve this much.
PS: Sorry for my english :s
Says the French person who makes an account on TL just for this thread.
Come on now, Stephano signed a LEGAL contract and backed out. You cannot do that, I do not care where you live. Do not be so ignorant because he is a native to your country. If he was from the US and did this to a French team I would be on the French team's side because it is situations like this that are going to keep e-sports out of mainstream.
You do not see professional athletes switching teams after signing a contract do you?
Didn't think so.
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On September 20 2011 23:32 rO_Or wrote:
Irregardless of law and who is right or wrong legally, don't people (French included) feel that this whole situation really hurts French E-sports and it's future ability to grow? Every other big sc2 team looking to grow internationally is going to avoid french players like the plague if contracts are allowed to be voided after signing. Obviously everyone has to respect French law and realize that this situation may be 100% legal but Mill must see that this situation will stifle their relations with foreign teams quite a bit. And that would be fine if they had no intention of going international but from their statements it seems that they desire to grow.
I doubt this is a problem specifically for france. I bet we could have just the same situation in many countries when we are talking about players signing to a team that's not from their native country. Just look at regular sports and how much issues there are with international transfers. NHL vs KHL and so on. We can't really expect SC2 to have better regulations at this point in time. Shit happens.
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On September 20 2011 23:35 mechavoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:27 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 23:24 mechavoc wrote:On September 20 2011 22:59 Merlimoo wrote:
It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, I was thinking the very same thing about the aw shucks he didn't mean to sign it, he is just a kid, it was late, he didn’t have a good night sleep, he didn’t sign with an EU approved felt pen made in France and dipped in Ink from Portugal so it means nothing apologists If you want to quote, have the honesty to quote everything or signal that it was cut. Congratz! You've level up in "Mainstream media ninja technic"! I apologize I don't think I edited out anything of importance so here is the complete quote. I will Bold the part I removed as I didn't think it had anything to do with his point. Show nested quote +It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, Durp! Durp! Maybe it's because I'm not native and that I'm english is really bad... Too bad then.
I will stop this conversation, before I get banned for being too mean in a try to educate people. (edit for spelling)
Correct me if I'm wrong. What you are trying to say is:
A little girl from nevada, just got 18y old, got kicked out of her home after a fight with her parents. All her dreams seemed compromised and she does not know how to make for a living. She met a guy that propose her a job full of promises, sign a contract that said : "You are going to work in a foreign country for $2 a day in a mini skirt and without health insurance.". Obviously that is not what she wanted in her life and try to void the contract.
What you said is, she should honor it, screw her life for a good speech in a vulnerable time ?
Really ?
I mean: REALLY ??!!?? wtf then...
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On September 20 2011 23:43 analyze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:28 Elinda wrote:
Am i the only one thinking that there is too much drama about this contract?
I mean Stephano changed his mind, he clearly did a mistake but where are col damages? I mean it's not as if Stephano broke the contract 2/3 month after it started, col hasn't spent 1$ yet.
We oftenly hear in esport and sport that a player quit his team before the end of his contract and nobody never make a drama about it even if it's much more scandalous than stephano's case.
Well, in conclusion i think that there were unprofessionnal manners between stephano, col and Millenium but nothing that deserve this much.
PS: Sorry for my english :s Says the French person who makes an account on TL just for this thread. Come on now, Stephano signed a LEGAL contract and backed out. You cannot do that, I do not care where you live. Do not be so ignorant because he is a native to your country. If he was from the US and did this to a French team I would be on the French team's side because it is situations like this that are going to keep e-sports out of mainstream. You do not see professional athletes switching teams after signing a contract do you?Didn't think so.
I've seen this happen several times in recent years. Hockey players have left russia to play in the nhl despite being contracted and vice versa.
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On September 20 2011 23:28 Elinda wrote:
Am i the only one thinking that there is too much drama about this contract?
I mean Stephano changed his mind, he clearly did a mistake but where are col damages? I mean it's not as if Stephano broke the contract 2/3 month after it started, col hasn't spent 1$ yet.
We oftenly hear in esport and sport that a player quit his team before the end of his contract and nobody never make a drama about it even if it's much more scandalous than stephano's case.
Well, in conclusion i think that there were unprofessionnal manners between stephano, col and Millenium but nothing that deserve this much.
PS: Sorry for my english :s
I think it is largely due to the fact it is setting a bad precedent for the future. eSports isn't going to grow into something respectable if people don't take breach of contract seriously, if there are no consequences for Stephano then what is to discourage people from doing this in the future?
Contracts are enforced in all other respectable industries, and I agree that it is hard to quantify the damages done here (remember civil action is compensatory and not penal; meaning any damages paid are paid as compensation, not as punishment). However 'letting this one slide' because there aren't huge quantifiable damages is setting terrible precedent for the future :/ making progamers look like irresponsible, immature kids isn't going to do anything good for the industry.
Edit: To post above me, when professional athletes switch teams, the other team has to buy out the remaining length of the contract from existing team...they don't just walk away with a smile and a wave.
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Correct me if I'm wrong. What you are trying to say is:
A little girl from nevada, just got 18y old, got kicked out of her home after a fight with her parents. All her dreams seemed compromised and she does not know how to make for a living. She met a guy that propose her a job full of promises, sign a contract that said : "You are going to work in a foreign country for $2 a day in a mini skirt and without health insurance.". Obviously that is not what she wanted in her life and try to void the contract.
What you said is, she should honor it, screw her life for a good speech in a vulnerable moment ?
Really ?
I mean: REALLY ??!!?? wtf then...
Really don't even know how to respond to this. Obviously the point of a contract is to get what you want in writing, so.. what's your point?
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On September 20 2011 23:43 analyze wrote:
Says the French person who makes an account on TL just for this thread.
Come on now, Stephano signed a LEGAL contract and backed out. You cannot do that, I do not care where you live. Do not be so ignorant because he is a native to your country. If he was from the US and did this to a French team I would be on the French team's side because it is situations like this that are going to keep e-sports out of mainstream.
You do not see professional athletes switching teams after signing a contract do you?
Didn't think so.
Yeah i've opened this account only to post on this thread as well, it's my first TL account and i felt that i had to participate.
Yes we do. And it happens it ALL domains of life and especially in sports, when you change a job you break a contract and get a new one for instance.
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Anyone know if the kids parents were smart enough to have some legal representation of their own during these "negotiations"? Seems to me if someone wants my underage son or daughter to commit to something long-term like this, I would want my own legal representation to look over the legalese etc. Not to deny the kid, but to protect him.
Kids are kids in that they live for the moment and are easy to influence. Sometimes parents need to overstep (in their child's mind) their boundries.
Just a thought.
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On September 20 2011 23:38 rO_Or wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:34 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 23:32 rO_Or wrote:
Irregardless of law and who is right or wrong legally, don't people (French included) feel that this whole situation really hurts French E-sports and it's future ability to grow? Every other big sc2 team looking to grow internationally is going to avoid french players like the plague if contracts are allowed to be voided after signing. Obviously everyone has to respect French law and realize that this situation may be 100% legal but Mill must see that this situation will stifle their relations with foreign teams quite a bit. And that would be fine if they had no intention of going international but from their statements it seems that they desire to grow. IMO, it won't change anything. It's like this is the first time that is has happened in the world. And you world still have grown, doesn't it ? Just stop of being scared of everything. Wait what? I'm just saying that in the future, other teams looking to acquire foreign players will avoid French players because they can void their contracts. I understand that this is legal in France, there is nothing wrong with that but from an international standpoint, I don't think many other countries handle contracts the same way. While it may be 100% legal, it doesn't mean it is the most productive course of action.
Even if we(french) have some time when we can void a contract that we sign contract just "for the lolz" and void them a few hours/days after.
It's almost always because there's a very solid reason to.
So stephano did this because the contract from Col is full of Loophole, or is it because Mill convince Stephano from Col is full of loophole ?
Add the part where the contract can be totally Ok from an US pov, and totally not from the french one
Enjoy !
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On September 20 2011 23:46 Zalithian wrote:Show nested quote +
Correct me if I'm wrong. What you are trying to say is:
A little girl from nevada, just got 18y old, got kicked out of her home after a fight with her parents. All her dreams seemed compromised and she does not know how to make for a living. She met a guy that propose her a job full of promises, sign a contract that said : "You are going to work in a foreign country for $2 a day in a mini skirt and without health insurance.". Obviously that is not what she wanted in her life and try to void the contract.
What you said is, she should honor it, screw her life for a good speech in a vulnerable moment ?
Really ?
I mean: REALLY ??!!?? wtf then...
Really don't even know how to respond to this. Obviously the point of a contract is to get what you want in writing, so.. what's your point?
Once again: the fact that she has signed the contract in a vulnerable time, and that she clearly didn't want that in her real state of mind, automatically void the contract in France.
Is this clear enough ? Or what again ?
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Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:33 NewbieOne wrote:
A contract can be made orally, not necessarily in writing, and, especially depending on the exact specific jurisdiction, a written contract need not take precedence over a previous oral one. The subsequent written one may or may not be invalid and if invalid, damages are likely to be awardable at least to a party acting in good faith and having no knowledge of the existing oral contract.
Where stuff gets messy is the termination or non-termination of the oral contract or the possible obligation to terminate the pre-existing terminable contract after signing a new one that's incompatible. Any legal battle here is likely going to be long, messy and fierce unless there are very direct precedents.
I'd like to stress that as far as what is and what is not a contract, any French oral contract, as long as binding in French law, shouldn't be seen as somehow inferior to an American contract. (As far as the French go, please remember they aren't immigrants sitting in Texas for 20 years, talking the language and living under the law, they are foreigners right in their own country thousands of miles away, with possibly an 18 year old that managed to sign a Texas contract (signed, sealed and delivered or constructive signing online?).)
What's generally messy in cross-national contracts is the typical virtuality of the place of execution (info for Europeans: execution of a contract, in English, is the act of signing it into force, not the act of carrying it out, which is called performance), as well as the choice of law, jurisdiction of courts etc. I can't say I'm a great fan of a French 18 year old adolescent, with who knows what kind of command of English, signing a Texas contract (was it SSD or was it online constructive signing? was it translated for him? in fairness, there's talk about it having been explained to him, which is good). Remember we're talking about an 18 year old student (or until recently student, I don't know) that plays a computer game after hours (even if that's 8 hours), not a Hollywood-style celebrity that hires a staff of lawyers while still a teenager. However, it's nice to hear that the contract was explained to him. IMHO it would be optimal for players to receive legal counsel in such cases. Especially if the counterparty has a staff of lawyers.
Plus, there should be some arbitration in place, as in e-sports specific, like it sometimes happens in sports. Inconvenient for a sponsor/clan/gaming house to go cross-continent to sue, still more inconvenient for a French kid (no disrespect intended but let's look at facts) to be sued in Texas, should that ever happen. Such cases had better be decided on fairness principles that go beyond any legal system and without relying on formalities, technicalities and other intricacies of any single legal system that are obscure to foreigners. (Or everybody pick Korean law and Korean courts. Lol.)
Mediation also could help. All three actors would sit down and jointly sweat their foreheads over a solution that respects everybody's interests and rights. This is the way I believe this should be handled.
Speaking of mediation, a textbook case is when there are exactly 2000 bananas or oranges or whatever. Then there are two parties, each of which needs to get exactly 2000 units for some kind of pharmacological research or production of a cure for something bad. There are only 2000 units available. As you explore the case in mutual talks (if you get that deep, that is), it proves the one pharma needs the skins and the other needs the pulp, so not even a 50/50 split but everybody gets what he needs with just some added effort and creativity. This isn't likely to be the case here but double clanning has not been unheard of. Give the guy two nicks and have him alternate? While at it, perhaps make it somewhat harder than full time work to understand what it takes to be involved with two teams at once (120% work time jointly?)? Generate an exchange platform for French and American (EU and NA) players and teams? Like in the game, it would be the best to learn from the embarrassing situation to become a better gamer. (As in overcome the mutual feelings of hurt and offence and jointly do something good to win together over the bad. And help esports for the future with the solution you arrive at.)
I wish there was a way to +1 posts without being infracted. It's nice to see there are still people with brains on the planet
To add some bit of content, I'd like to make everyone notice the Millenium statement does say there was an oral agreement, if not contract, between M and Stephano, prior to Stephano signing the coL contract. So M is only trying to protect its interests, and can't be regarded as responsible for the screw-up of their player.
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On September 20 2011 23:44 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:35 mechavoc wrote:On September 20 2011 23:27 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 23:24 mechavoc wrote:On September 20 2011 22:59 Merlimoo wrote:
It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, I was thinking the very same thing about the aw shucks he didn't mean to sign it, he is just a kid, it was late, he didn’t have a good night sleep, he didn’t sign with an EU approved felt pen made in France and dipped in Ink from Portugal so it means nothing apologists If you want to quote, have the honesty to quote everything or signal that it was cut. Congratz! You've level up in "Mainstream media ninja technic"! I apologize I don't think I edited out anything of importance so here is the complete quote. I will Bold the part I removed as I didn't think it had anything to do with his point. It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, Durp! Durp! Maybe it's because I'm not native and that I'm english is really bad... Too bad then.
I will stop this conversation, before I get banned for being too mean in a try to educate people. (edit for spelling) Correct me if I'm wrong. What you are trying to say is: A little girl from nevada, just got 18y old, got kicked out of her home after a fight with her parents. All her dreams seemed compromised and she does not know how to make for a living. She met a guy that propose her a job full of promises, sign a contract that said : "You are going to work in a foreign country for $2 a day in a mini skirt and without health insurance.". Obviously that is not what she wanted in her life and try to void the contract. What you said is, she should honor it, screw her life for a good speech in a vulnerable time ? Really ? I mean: REALLY ??!!?? wtf then...
First of all that isn't anything like what happened. This contract was discussed for an extended period of time and the decision wasn't made rashly due to a fit of rage or anger. But regardless if the contract was explained to the girl and she still decided to sign it then yes she committed to that job and should follow through with her commitment.
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On September 20 2011 23:49 jib117 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:44 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 23:35 mechavoc wrote:On September 20 2011 23:27 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 23:24 mechavoc wrote:On September 20 2011 22:59 Merlimoo wrote:
It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, I was thinking the very same thing about the aw shucks he didn't mean to sign it, he is just a kid, it was late, he didn’t have a good night sleep, he didn’t sign with an EU approved felt pen made in France and dipped in Ink from Portugal so it means nothing apologists If you want to quote, have the honesty to quote everything or signal that it was cut. Congratz! You've level up in "Mainstream media ninja technic"! I apologize I don't think I edited out anything of importance so here is the complete quote. I will Bold the part I removed as I didn't think it had anything to do with his point. It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, Durp! Durp! Maybe it's because I'm not native and that I'm english is really bad... Too bad then.
I will stop this conversation, before I get banned for being too mean in a try to educate people. (edit for spelling) Correct me if I'm wrong. What you are trying to say is: A little girl from nevada, just got 18y old, got kicked out of her home after a fight with her parents. All her dreams seemed compromised and she does not know how to make for a living. She met a guy that propose her a job full of promises, sign a contract that said : "You are going to work in a foreign country for $2 a day in a mini skirt and without health insurance.". Obviously that is not what she wanted in her life and try to void the contract. What you said is, she should honor it, screw her life for a good speech in a vulnerable time ? Really ? I mean: REALLY ??!!?? wtf then... First of all that isn't anything like what happened. This contract was discussed for an extended period of time and the decision wasn't made rashly due to a fit of rage or anger. But regardless if the contract was explained to the girl and she still decided to sign it then yes she committed to that job and should follow through with her commitment.
Then, your laws do not protect your citizens. Nothing else to say.
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EPT
