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On September 20 2011 07:34 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:25 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:17 Kieofire wrote:On September 20 2011 07:13 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:38 keioh wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from? stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it. So a legally binding contract is not a legal contract ? Shit, world doesn't make sense anymore. Hate will prevail as usual. it wasn't a legally binding contract. there's more to making a contract legally binding than a piece of paper, some words, and a signature. those words must have valid form, and legitimate function. If it has the signature of the person who agrees to it then it is legally binding, what do you not understand? that's false. contracts are legal documents in which two or more parties agree to exchange goods or perform services; that's all. they can only promise certain things, and can only operate in certain ways. if you just write some words on a piece of paper and sign it, that's no guarantee it will have any legal meaning. Well considering we are all making wild assumptions; let's have a go. Complexity is apparently a professionally run organisation that is employing contracts to retain and sign players; Jason Lake has been in this business a long time, and has had players poached and sniped (read: Counter strike) - he knows what's involved. I assume (<-- grand assumption) this was not just some napkin with a few scribbles on it with some dollar signs - it may have been properly drafted. A properly drafted contract will usually specify which country's laws are to apply in the event of a dispute so the fact that you just keep assuming all of the stuff you've spouted in this thread is pretty hilarious. The French and US legal systems are two completely different systems founded upon fundamentally different ideas; i can keep pretending that i know all the details and what will happen but that seems to be your job. There are so many possibilities in this scenario that how you are coming to your conclusions is pretty impressive - maybe there was a cooling off period? Maybe, if US laws apply, there is a ton of weight behind Stephano's signature being on the document (having something signed is a big deal in contract law in terms of consent and understanding the agreement) or maybe Stephano didn't sign anything and this is a massive conspiracy against team Mill 
i suspect mr. lake believed that his contract was valid, and would apply in france. it does seem strange that he'd make such a rookie mistake, but my guess is they haven't had this particular problem in the past and so never had to learn about international employment law. after all, the contract would've been valid if stephano was a french *expatriate* who'd *willingly* moved to the u.s. to play starcraft.
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On September 20 2011 07:39 Chloroplaste wrote:Stop Flame on Millenium guys : Millenium said they will send him on all big tournaments all other the world where he can be, There WILL BE Stephano on MLG, IPL etc... They always said they WILL SEND Stephano to KOREA if he wants to train 1or2monthmax or specially if he won a GSL spot ! They also announce about their future Gaming house in Marseille that they have maybe found one but they are looking for answer about the connection and more, and it is a 400m² gaming house ! It will be open to players of other teams to train together and they may do a lan like Homestory Cup =) Millenium is doing a lot to develop Esport in France and in general, They develop cup with their sponsor with top EU players and will develop bigger lans tournament in future (like that one MSI Pro Cup #2 ) Millenium and Stephano FIGHTING !!!
Nice advertisement that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
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Greate move by Stephano. Really good for his career. *Irony off*
I dont really care about any legal ramifications, but i sure as hell wont take Stephano or Mill seriously in the future.
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On September 20 2011 07:39 Cyrak wrote:
I am officially on board with KESPA 2. An organized, respectful international Starcraft scene will never be a reality.
Funny.
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On September 20 2011 07:38 TLUtv wrote:
I hate how this has turned into a matter of nationalism, It's nothing of the sort, they used an online contracting service, he agreed and signed his contract, it's fucking despicable to not take responsibility for your actions, I'm disappointed with all the American's on here that are being rude towards french people seeing as though it isn't the country as a wholes fault, simply Stephano's and Millenniums ignorance, as for the french people in the thread that are saying equally bad things about america but also simply agreeing with millennium due to the nationalist card, It's stupid, just stop it, Complexity had all the right to let the public now that they've been wronged in a business aspect and that there should be repercussions, Stephano signed a contract, Millennium didn't want to lose their best sc2 player, so they played dirty and its going to come back to them. Regardless of what was within the legally binding document, Millennium, along with Stephano, has BM'd on probably the highest of levels, They should in my personal opinion have to deal with some sort of ban or repercussions within the starcraft 2 field, whether it be a simple season ban or multiple seasons, This cannot be allowed to happen, It's incidents like these that do not allow E-sports to progress.
I've read just about every page of this thread and can count the amount of american's being rude to french people on one hand.
Just because people want Mil to show accountability and not hide behind their laws has nothing to do with their nationality.
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On September 20 2011 07:32 whoopingchow wrote:
Sigh, kids these days....it'd be like if Lebron did "The Decision" and then Dan Snyder then came out with proof that Lebron had actually signed a contract to stay with the Cavs until 2014. Who's really at fault here? In this case, it has to be Stephano. You can't blame Millenium for wanting to keep him, and assuming CoL. wrote up the contract properly, then they're blameless.
Of course, all of this is assuming CoL. drew up a proper contract. I hope this ends quickly and we can get on with everything.
I understand what you are saying and I do agree, but I also think that Millenium is somewhat to blame for this as well. No, they aren't to blame for Stephano's situation as far as his business with compLexity, but they are responsible for it blowing up and becoming a rather embarassing moment for all three parties involved as they were the ones who decided to publicly announce that Stephano was staying with Millenium, disregarding his commitments to compLexity. The only thing that I could think of that would make that move justifiable is if Stephano did not notify Millenium that he actually committed to joining compLexity and signed the contract, leaving them under the impression that negotiations for Stephano were not finalized and that compLexity jumped the gun on the announcement.
Like you said, hopefully this all gets sorted out soon regardless of who is at fault. It really doesn't matter too much at this point I suppose, as long as people learn from it and avoid these situations in the future.
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On September 20 2011 07:36 anGe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:30 Megiddosc wrote:
The contract that Stephano signed with coL is not a CDI. So can we please stop talking about that? The whole "trial period" or whatever, or "withdrawal clause"... all that is for a CDI. Jesus, finally someone brings this up. Because you can't break a CDD. Not if the company doesn't agrees too at least. Although you have a retract time for most of the contracts (at least one week).
You can break a CDD if you find a CDI... or to be near your family.
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Well, this is quite surprising coming from Stephano, oh wait, he's a zerg. nvm. LOL jk
On a serious note,
this must be incredibly frustrating for coL to deal with this upset.
As for people who say he is only a kid (lol 18 is considered a kid?), that depends on which country you are from.
The world is built on laws and contracts, if the e-sports scene should be successful, shouldn't it follow the same foundation too?
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Maybe what really happened is that by getting interest from Col Stephano could put more pressure on Mil to offer him more to sign again? Mil agreed to the terms he wanted so Col gets burned in the end.
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On September 20 2011 07:29 BuddhaMonk wrote:
There's 2 issues here.
1. Even if Stephano had not signed any contract and had just verbally told coL that he was joining. For him to back out after agreeing to join speaks to his character (or lack thereof). I'm not sure what he was thinking (maybe he wasn't thinking), but this hurts Stephano's reputation and credibility and he's morally wrong to do what he did. There's no argument here against this point that is convincing. Nobody was holding a gun to his head, agreeing to something at 3AM is not an excuse for breaking your word.
2. If Esports ever wants to break through from fringe activity to mainstream, these types of legal issues will need to be sorted out in an actual court of law, or they'll continue to occur. Similar incidents have gone to court and were seen through to the end, but as I understand it they were Swedish courts ruling on Swedish teams and players. To the best of my knowledge an international legal precedent has not yet been set for this type of issue. That being said, there's no reason to believe any of this would be any different than the legal situation for regular sports. At some point, someone will take legal action and I commend coL for considering it, to the benefit of Esports as whole. Likewise leagues will have to address these issues as well (as they have in the past - again more with CS than SC).
The only bearing the legality of the contract in France would have is on whether coL wants to take their chances in legal action. Even if the contract is totally invalid, Stephano is still morally in the wrong. It's also humorous to see so many armchair legal experts appear out of nowhere trying to push all sorts of weird and obscure laws to push their agenda.
I agree with both of these points.
Every sport has contract dispute and they do need to be legally resolved or we have these problems over and over again. It seems like every month we hear about these. Once someone takes a contract dispute to court it will reduce the amount of these pros thinking a contract doesn't mean anything (not sure about this situation with regards to the contact)
Just look at other up and coming sports, take the ufc for example. They had people breaking there contracts, they ended up suing them for quite a substantial amount of money. And guess what after that their athletes started to honor and respect the contracts.
Not talking particularly about this situation since in not sure on the laws, but i will stand behind a team that sues someone over leaving and breaking there contractual obligations.
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On September 20 2011 07:37 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:34 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:31 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 20 2011 07:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:28 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:18 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 07:17 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:08 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:06 Ubes wrote:On September 20 2011 07:03 Ruscour wrote:
[quote]
I was gonna say, I'm at university right now and I'm 17, studying at uni at 18 isn't out of the norm at all.. Med School at 18 isn't the norm. in france, medical school begins at an undergraduate level. this is also true in australia, and many other places. there's a common theme in this thread: people assuming that the way things work in their country is the way they do, and should, work everywhere else. Well you don't know jack about France apparently. What you're saying about how you can quit your job at any time baffles me. You have to come to an agreement with your company otherwise it's legal for them to sue you so stop posting really because you're making a fool out of yourself. Not to mention that you keep speaking of the contract but I'm quite sure you didn't see it and if you did I have to agree with the guy saying you're from Mil. And even if you are you don't know anything about international law and that's a shame. well it does say his country is Australia ... Well that's my point, this guys keeps speaking for France when he's obviously not French. Because if he is, he better be trolling... @EvOr, and if you don't do your "pré-avis"'s time they will sue you. The only thing that could "save" Stephano is the retract time of the contract (if there was one to begin with). i'm not "speaking for france". i'm not french, as you guessed. i'm speaking up to say that stephano shouldn't be vilified for making an error of judgement then quickly changing his mind - and that compLexity shouldn't be making insane legal threats with no knowledge of the protections conferred on workers by nations other than the usa. I get it now, Australian communist party? did you just accuse me of being a card-carrying communist? like this was freaking 1950 or something? have i posted through a timewarp into the mccarthy hearings? 40 of your 50 posts have been in this thread and you keep whining about labour. And you deny being a communist. That certainly sounds like something a communist would do, doesn't it? i haven't actually denied being a communist, but i think it's really freaking hilarious that someone is literally, in the year 2011, accusing someone of communism as if this was
a) meaningful
b) relevant
c) negative
d) anything but hysterical
User was warned for this post
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On September 20 2011 07:40 EvOr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:36 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:30 Megiddosc wrote:
The contract that Stephano signed with coL is not a CDI. So can we please stop talking about that? The whole "trial period" or whatever, or "withdrawal clause"... all that is for a CDI. Jesus, finally someone brings this up. Because you can't break a CDD. Not if the company doesn't agrees too at least. Although you have a retract time for most of the contracts (at least one week). You can break a CDD if you find a CDI... or to be near your family.
Legally Mil and Stephano should be fine right? But don't you agree that Mil should at the very least hold themselves accountable for what happened? And I mean even as simple as a statement?
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On September 20 2011 07:39 Chloroplaste wrote:Stop Flame on Millenium guys : Millenium said they will send him on all big tournaments all other the world where he can be, There WILL BE Stephano on MLG, IPL etc... They always said they WILL SEND Stephano to KOREA if he wants to train 1or2monthmax or specially if he won a GSL spot ! They also announce about their future Gaming house in Marseille that they have maybe found one but they are looking for answer about the connection and more, and it is a 400m² gaming house ! It will be open to players of other teams to train together and they may do a lan like Homestory Cup =) Millenium is doing a lot to develop Esport in France and in general, They develop cup with their sponsor with top EU players and will develop bigger lans tournament in future (like that one MSI Pro Cup #2 ) Millenium and Stephano FIGHTING !!!
Hi Stephano, I just wanted to say that making 300 accounts to post in this thread was unncessary. Just use your real account.
I'm sorry that you didn't like your contract with coL, and I'm sorry that you'll probably not be allowed to play in American leagues because you violated American law.
Please, have fun in France
Love always,
Chargelot
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I apologize.
User was warned for this post
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whut what where when what? WHAT?
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On September 20 2011 07:39 Chloroplaste wrote:Stop Flame on Millenium guys : Millenium said they will send him on all big tournaments all other the world where he can be, There WILL BE Stephano on MLG, IPL etc... They always said they WILL SEND Stephano to KOREA if he wants to train 1or2monthmax or specially if he won a GSL spot ! They also announce about their future Gaming house in Marseille that they have maybe found one but they are looking for answer about the connection and more, and it is a 400m² gaming house ! It will be open to players of other teams to train together and they may do a lan like Homestory Cup =) Millenium is doing a lot to develop Esport in France and in general, They develop cup with their sponsor with top EU players and will develop bigger lans tournament in future (like that one MSI Pro Cup #2 ) Millenium and Stephano FIGHTING !!!
Teamhouse ? Stephano's game won't improve by playing with the other sc2 Millenium's player , they are nowhere near his level
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On September 20 2011 07:39 Chloroplaste wrote:Stop Flame on Millenium guys : Millenium said they will send him on all big tournaments all other the world where he can be, There WILL BE Stephano on MLG, IPL etc... They always said they WILL SEND Stephano to KOREA if he wants to train 1or2monthmax or specially if he won a GSL spot ! They also announce about their future Gaming house in Marseille that they have maybe found one but they are looking for answer about the connection and more, and it is a 400m² gaming house ! It will be open to players of other teams to train together and they may do a lan like Homestory Cup =) Millenium is doing a lot to develop Esport in France and in general, They develop cup with their sponsor with top EU players and will develop bigger lans tournament in future (like that one MSI Pro Cup #2 ) Millenium and Stephano FIGHTING !!!
All this may be but they doesn't really explain this situation does it. All of which you stated seems so insignificant now.
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On September 20 2011 07:37 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:34 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:31 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 20 2011 07:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:28 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:18 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 07:17 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:08 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:06 Ubes wrote:On September 20 2011 07:03 Ruscour wrote:
[quote]
I was gonna say, I'm at university right now and I'm 17, studying at uni at 18 isn't out of the norm at all.. Med School at 18 isn't the norm. in france, medical school begins at an undergraduate level. this is also true in australia, and many other places. there's a common theme in this thread: people assuming that the way things work in their country is the way they do, and should, work everywhere else. Well you don't know jack about France apparently. What you're saying about how you can quit your job at any time baffles me. You have to come to an agreement with your company otherwise it's legal for them to sue you so stop posting really because you're making a fool out of yourself. Not to mention that you keep speaking of the contract but I'm quite sure you didn't see it and if you did I have to agree with the guy saying you're from Mil. And even if you are you don't know anything about international law and that's a shame. well it does say his country is Australia ... Well that's my point, this guys keeps speaking for France when he's obviously not French. Because if he is, he better be trolling... @EvOr, and if you don't do your "pré-avis"'s time they will sue you. The only thing that could "save" Stephano is the retract time of the contract (if there was one to begin with). i'm not "speaking for france". i'm not french, as you guessed. i'm speaking up to say that stephano shouldn't be vilified for making an error of judgement then quickly changing his mind - and that compLexity shouldn't be making insane legal threats with no knowledge of the protections conferred on workers by nations other than the usa. I get it now, Australian communist party? did you just accuse me of being a card-carrying communist? like this was freaking 1950 or something? have i posted through a timewarp into the mccarthy hearings? 40 of your 50 posts have been in this thread and you keep whining about labour. And you deny being a communist. That certainly sounds like something a communist would do, doesn't it?
An American with a warped idea of what a communist is
What a surprise
User was warned for this post
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I doubt this will be resolved anytime soon.
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Contracts are not only in existence to ensure that players will represent their team with professionalism, but also to give these players a sense of stability. The behavior that seems to have been displayed by Stephano and Millenium is unprofessional, and is detrimental in the short term for both Millenium and Complexity. Teams and players that take contracts seriously stand to benefit so much more than those that are ready to ignore them. In the interest of protecting the integrity of their brands, I wouldn't be surprised if teams and tournaments choose to dissociate themselves from organizations and individuals that can't conduct themselves ethically.
Stephano is a great zerg, and I've enjoyed watching a few of his games lately. Millenium, according to what their statement says about website hits, is also doing quite well. Hopefully team and player can rise above this debacle and show that they can contribute to the scene.
I've followed complexity since its inception. The play of their Counter-Stike team was a pleasure to behold, and because of that history I've followed coL's expansion into SC2 more closely than their results up to this point may have otherwise warranted. It won't be long before Complexity is held in the same esteem as Liquid, EG, Fnatic etc.
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EPT
