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On September 20 2011 07:30 gulbanana wrote:
i'm not "speaking for france". i'm not french, as you guessed. i'm speaking up to say that stephano shouldn't be vilified for making an error of judgement then quickly changing his mind - and that compLexity shouldn't be making insane legal threats with no knowledge of the protections conferred on workers by nations other than the usa.
Except you're making random comments about french law. therefore you kind of are.
Also
On September 20 2011 07:20 gulbanana wrote:
france doesn't care whether you care whether contracts are in french.
On September 20 2011 07:30 gulbanana wrote:
i'm not "speaking for france"
Hmmm... Really.....
EDIT:
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN
We have arrived at 100 pages of nonsense >_<
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What's the point telling french ppl are idiots becauz of this ? really ? you're the only ones who are idiots there to tell things like that..
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people need to stop with their high horses, no court is going to care about contracts that involve ridiculously low amounts of money in such a marginal case.
the us law as strong as it is won't force someone that is not even in the US to work for anybody, nor do they have the ability to break the french contract from a french employer to a french employee on french ground within french law.
also, it's much better for stephano as it is right now, and it should be seen as a step for esports : he has a REAL contract (not 1 year or 6 months contract) which has "no end".
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On September 20 2011 07:11 najreteip wrote:
Med School at 18 isn't the norm.
It is over here, and I'm pretty sure it is in France as well[/QUOTE]
In the U.S., one attends Med school after completing undergraduate studies at a university.
See:
http://lawblog.legalmatch.com/2010/05/10/international-contract-drafting-a-complex-headache/
In short, an international contract requires:
- a choice of law clause (Which nation's law will enforce this contract?)
- a choice of forum clause (Where will litigation of this contract be performed?)
- an Arbitration clause (allows for arbitration between two parties of different nationalities if both of their nations have signed onto the New York Convention [which most nations have])
- an Arbitration process clause (What issues are allowed to lead to go to arbitration, and how the arbitration process proceeds)
Basically, assuming CoL. drafted the contract properly, with proper notarization from both sides, they should be airtight. My worry for this is that Stephano agreed to the terms of the contract without a) consulting a lawyer, and b) a full understanding of everything that was required by the contract. It'd be a huge shame if this were the case.
Sigh, kids these days....it'd be like if Lebron did "The Decision" and then Dan Snyder then came out with proof that Lebron had actually signed a contract to stay with the Cavs until 2014. Who's really at fault here? In this case, it has to be Stephano. You can't blame Millenium for wanting to keep him, and assuming CoL. wrote up the contract properly, then they're blameless.
Of course, all of this is assuming CoL. drew up a proper contract. I hope this ends quickly and we can get on with everything.
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On September 20 2011 07:30 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:28 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:18 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 07:17 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:08 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:06 Ubes wrote:On September 20 2011 07:03 Ruscour wrote:On September 20 2011 07:01 najreteip wrote:On September 20 2011 06:51 justinpal wrote:On September 20 2011 06:49 EvOr wrote:
Wanna guess what's the next move of Stephano : Going back to his studies, he switch to a full time pro-gamer, right before entering med school, he will switch back to being a student...
Stephano is 18? He is going to med school soon? Really? Why not? Going to university at 18 seems pretty normal to me I was gonna say, I'm at university right now and I'm 17, studying at uni at 18 isn't out of the norm at all.. Med School at 18 isn't the norm. in france, medical school begins at an undergraduate level. this is also true in australia, and many other places. there's a common theme in this thread: people assuming that the way things work in their country is the way they do, and should, work everywhere else. Well you don't know jack about France apparently. What you're saying about how you can quit your job at any time baffles me. You have to come to an agreement with your company otherwise it's legal for them to sue you so stop posting really because you're making a fool out of yourself. Not to mention that you keep speaking of the contract but I'm quite sure you didn't see it and if you did I have to agree with the guy saying you're from Mil. And even if you are you don't know anything about international law and that's a shame. well it does say his country is Australia ... Well that's my point, this guys keeps speaking for France when he's obviously not French. Because if he is, he better be trolling... @EvOr, and if you don't do your "pré-avis"'s time they will sue you. The only thing that could "save" Stephano is the retract time of the contract (if there was one to begin with). i'm not "speaking for france". i'm not french, as you guessed. i'm speaking up to say that stephano shouldn't be vilified for making an error of judgement then quickly changing his mind - and that compLexity shouldn't be making insane legal threats with no knowledge of the protections conferred on workers by nations other than the usa.
you're absolutely right
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On September 20 2011 07:24 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:21 Himali wrote:On September 20 2011 07:15 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 07:14 Himali wrote:On September 20 2011 07:13 Ym!r wrote:
They chose to tell him the contract is garbage, pretending it's in Stephano's favor to stay with Millenium, when it's not, they don't have half the opportunities coL could provide him
Finally, as said by Millenium : " LET S FOCUS ON THE FRENCH LANS"
Some people says that the american aren't aware of the world outside of USA, but
what about France ? That's seriously selfish from Millenium, they are killing Stephano's carreer, one year in SC2 is a LOT That is just unfair, you obviously do know nothing about both team audience reach and fan base development. Neither do you. Actually I do but just to dismiss your first statement with minimum effort: Complexity 22k FB likes, Millenium 18k. Millenium having a real content production and distribution strategy with avg. 3k viewer on THEIR own webtv (growing at >20% per monthlast 12 month). Col. content distribution strategy? See here: http://www.complexitygaming.com/streams/Obviously killing stephanos carrer... right And yet what does Mill ever do outside of France? And Complexity? You mean that partnership they have with team MVP where Stephano could train in a Korean pro house with zergs like DRG? The dude from Mill even said that they have no plans to send Stephano to more international stuff than now, which means none at all.
Trying at all cost to internally expand your brand before developing a strong regional / national fan base... right, best sports development strategy ever...
Some people should really take a Dana White lesson in "How shit is done"... Millenium is actually not only the best French team but simply the only professional e-sports organization in France, federating the entire community in an integrated model with no pressure from organizers. It's beginning to produce their own content (meaning events/ tournaments/tv shows/commentary) on their own proprietary platform. Clearly they don't know what they are doing. But hey American teams seem to like to get f**** by the MLGs, NASLs and GSLs of this world concentrating most of the equity...
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Honestly even if coL can't get anywhere legally because of french law, that doesn't mean Mil is in the right for hiding behind it and not even discussing it with coL. It is backhanded, shady, and most of all undermines the whole concept of contracts in eSports.
Mill should at the very least pay for the contract from coL, if they don't I can't see them coming out of this anything but the bad guys.
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On September 20 2011 07:28 Elinda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:13 Ym!r wrote:
Ok guys, so basically :
If Millenium lose Stephano, they will no longer have a top SC2 player
They chose to tell him the contract is garbage, pretending it's in Stephano's favor to stay with Millenium, when it's not, they don't have half the opportunities coL could provide him
Finally, as said by Millenium : " LET S FOCUS ON THE FRENCH LANS"
Some people says that the american aren't aware of the world outside of USA, but
what about France ? That's seriously selfish from Millenium, they are killing Stephano's carreer, one year in SC2 is a LOT I am french and was on Millenium stream all night: Millenium's manager NEVER SAID THATStephano will go to many international events, even in korea.
Elinda his right.
EDIT for Ym!r ; And about "killing Stephano's carreer"...man...instead of CoL it would be Dignitas, Mouz, EG, TL, or any famous korean team, you would be right ! But CoL man...Be objective just a minute...CoL or Millenium is just the same level, The difference is that Millenium have to deserve it's slots for MLG. Nothing more.
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This is just bad play on Mill's part. Stephano signed a contract, was, in no way, "taken in," and blatantly tried to snatch Stephano back from coL after he clearly signed a contract.
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On September 20 2011 07:26 taLbuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:25 Horse...falcon wrote:
I'm a fake lawyer too and in my grand official legal opinion that France is the true victim here. A French citizen was swindled into a contract by a fat, arrogant, racist American and forced to toil for the rest of his life playing in american starcraft tournaments. Luckily French superstar lawyer and NBA point guard Tony Parker was able to rescue our boy hero and win the Olympic Gold medal game from the dirty Americans and bring justice to the universe. pretty much what any thread involving an American organization will boil down to here on teamliquid
So true. The butthurt runs deep on these forums.
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On September 20 2011 07:28 anGe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:18 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 07:17 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:08 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:06 Ubes wrote:On September 20 2011 07:03 Ruscour wrote:On September 20 2011 07:01 najreteip wrote:On September 20 2011 06:51 justinpal wrote:On September 20 2011 06:49 EvOr wrote:
Wanna guess what's the next move of Stephano : Going back to his studies, he switch to a full time pro-gamer, right before entering med school, he will switch back to being a student...
Stephano is 18? He is going to med school soon? Really? Why not? Going to university at 18 seems pretty normal to me I was gonna say, I'm at university right now and I'm 17, studying at uni at 18 isn't out of the norm at all.. Med School at 18 isn't the norm. in france, medical school begins at an undergraduate level. this is also true in australia, and many other places. there's a common theme in this thread: people assuming that the way things work in their country is the way they do, and should, work everywhere else. Well you don't know jack about France apparently. What you're saying about how you can quit your job at any time baffles me. You have to come to an agreement with your company otherwise it's legal for them to sue you so stop posting really because you're making a fool out of yourself. Not to mention that you keep speaking of the contract but I'm quite sure you didn't see it and if you did I have to agree with the guy saying you're from Mil. And even if you are you don't know anything about international law and that's a shame. well it does say his country is Australia ... Well that's my point, this guys keeps speaking for France when he's obviously not French. Because if he is, he better be trolling... @EvOr, and if you don't do your "pré-avis"'s time they will sue you. The only thing that could "save" Stephano is the retract time of the contract (if there was one to begin with).
Yeap, but your post wasn't clear enough. On the other hand Col said it was a contractor contract, which means it's not an employement one. Since it's not something legal from a french company to a french citizen, i actually don't know the international jurisprudence about it, but the australian guy you're dismissing with your posts is knowledgeable about both that (I look some of his information up and i know some other, since i have tried to be a contractor myself) and some french information he used in his previous ones.
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This is getting more posts per minute than the whole HuK thing did. Impressive.
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On September 20 2011 07:30 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:28 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:18 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 07:17 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:08 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:06 Ubes wrote:On September 20 2011 07:03 Ruscour wrote:On September 20 2011 07:01 najreteip wrote:On September 20 2011 06:51 justinpal wrote:On September 20 2011 06:49 EvOr wrote:
Wanna guess what's the next move of Stephano : Going back to his studies, he switch to a full time pro-gamer, right before entering med school, he will switch back to being a student...
Stephano is 18? He is going to med school soon? Really? Why not? Going to university at 18 seems pretty normal to me I was gonna say, I'm at university right now and I'm 17, studying at uni at 18 isn't out of the norm at all.. Med School at 18 isn't the norm. in france, medical school begins at an undergraduate level. this is also true in australia, and many other places. there's a common theme in this thread: people assuming that the way things work in their country is the way they do, and should, work everywhere else. Well you don't know jack about France apparently. What you're saying about how you can quit your job at any time baffles me. You have to come to an agreement with your company otherwise it's legal for them to sue you so stop posting really because you're making a fool out of yourself. Not to mention that you keep speaking of the contract but I'm quite sure you didn't see it and if you did I have to agree with the guy saying you're from Mil. And even if you are you don't know anything about international law and that's a shame. well it does say his country is Australia ... Well that's my point, this guys keeps speaking for France when he's obviously not French. Because if he is, he better be trolling... @EvOr, and if you don't do your "pré-avis"'s time they will sue you. The only thing that could "save" Stephano is the retract time of the contract (if there was one to begin with). i'm not "speaking for france". i'm not french, as you guessed. i'm speaking up to say that stephano shouldn't be vilified for making an error of judgement then quickly changing his mind - and that compLexity shouldn't be making insane legal threats with no knowledge of the protections conferred on workers by nations other than the usa.
Let coL do what they want. Obviously they felt that they were screwed or played around with. That alone gives them a right to take legal action on their own behalf whether they are truly right or wrong. It's their money anyways. Does that hurt Esports? Not as much as Stephano or Mill who refuse to discuss or explain what happened. coL potentially has no idea what happened just like the rest of us. And if you can understand that, you'll understand why everyone is pissed at both sides.
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On September 20 2011 07:29 BuddhaMonk wrote:
There's 2 issues here.
1. Even if Stephano had not signed any contract and had just verbally told coL that he was joining. For him to back out after agreeing to join speaks to his character (or lack thereof). I'm not sure what he was thinking (maybe he wasn't thinking), but this hurts Stephano's reputation and credibility and he's morally wrong to do what he did. There's no argument here against this point that is convincing. Nobody was holding a gun to his head, agreeing to something at 3AM is not an excuse for breaking your word.
2. If Esports ever wants to break through from fringe activity to mainstream, these types of legal issues will need to be sorted out in an actual court of law, or they'll continue to occur. Similar incidents have gone to court and were seen through to the end, but as I understand it they were Swedish courts ruling on Swedish teams and players. To the best of my knowledge an international legal precedent has not yet been set for this type of issue. That being said, there's no reason to believe any of this would be any different than the legal situation for regular sports. At some point, someone will take legal action and I commend coL for considering it, to the benefit of Esports as whole. Likewise leagues will have to address these issues as well (as they have in the past - again more with CS than SC).
The only bearing the legality of the contract in France would have is on whether coL wants to take their chances in legal action. Even if the contract is totally invalid, Stephano is still morally in the wrong. It's also humorous to see so many armchair legal experts appear out of nowhere trying to push all sorts of weird and obscure laws to push their agenda.
well put, especially on your 2nd point. There have been way too many contract disputes between teams arguing over this and that. E-Sports needs transactions like HuK to EG. While it may not have been popular, it was handled with professionalism. This industry has a lot of money in it already, so it cannot be treated like some hobby any longer.
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Oh by the way.
Is Millenium trying to do the same thing China was doing decades ago ?
Trying to grow French esport and feed French esport by himself without opening abroad
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Australia8532 Posts
On September 20 2011 07:25 gulbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:17 Kieofire wrote:On September 20 2011 07:13 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:38 keioh wrote:On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind" do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from? do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from? stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it. So a legally binding contract is not a legal contract ? Shit, world doesn't make sense anymore. Hate will prevail as usual. it wasn't a legally binding contract. there's more to making a contract legally binding than a piece of paper, some words, and a signature. those words must have valid form, and legitimate function. If it has the signature of the person who agrees to it then it is legally binding, what do you not understand? that's false. contracts are legal documents in which two or more parties agree to exchange goods or perform services; that's all. they can only promise certain things, and can only operate in certain ways. if you just write some words on a piece of paper and sign it, that's no guarantee it will have any legal meaning.
Well considering we are all making wild assumptions; let's have a go.
Complexity is apparently a professionally run organisation that is employing contracts to retain and sign players; Jason Lake has been in this business a long time, and has had players poached and sniped (read: Counter strike) - he knows what's involved. I assume (<-- grand assumption) this was not just some napkin with a few scribbles on it with some dollar signs - it may have been properly drafted. A properly drafted contract will usually specify which country's laws are to apply in the event of a dispute so the fact that you just keep assuming all of the stuff you've spouted in this thread is pretty hilarious.
The French and US legal systems are two completely different systems founded upon fundamentally different ideas; i can keep pretending that i know all the details and what will happen but that seems to be your job. There are so many possibilities in this scenario that how you are coming to your conclusions is pretty impressive - maybe there was a cooling off period? Maybe, if US laws apply, there is a ton of weight behind Stephano's signature being on the document (having something signed is a big deal in contract law in terms of consent and understanding the agreement) or maybe Stephano didn't sign anything and this is a massive conspiracy against team Mill 
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France266 Posts
On September 20 2011 07:29 Kaedeleus wrote:
But he also said that there have been talks with the Korean team that Stephano will go to Korea etc. ..
He explained that he got in touch with Korean teams in order to fulfill ToD's wish to practice in Korea, and that he eventually drop it because he thought that foreigners in Korea have not enough visibility. That was why he couldn't come to an agreement with ToD, why ToD left the team.
When he talked about the global project, it was about a long-term vision of what Millenium might become. Not about his current to-do list.
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On September 20 2011 07:31 ZestyPickle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:28 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:18 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 07:17 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:08 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:06 Ubes wrote:On September 20 2011 07:03 Ruscour wrote:On September 20 2011 07:01 najreteip wrote:On September 20 2011 06:51 justinpal wrote:
[quote]
Stephano is 18? He is going to med school soon? Really? Why not? Going to university at 18 seems pretty normal to me I was gonna say, I'm at university right now and I'm 17, studying at uni at 18 isn't out of the norm at all.. Med School at 18 isn't the norm. in france, medical school begins at an undergraduate level. this is also true in australia, and many other places. there's a common theme in this thread: people assuming that the way things work in their country is the way they do, and should, work everywhere else. Well you don't know jack about France apparently. What you're saying about how you can quit your job at any time baffles me. You have to come to an agreement with your company otherwise it's legal for them to sue you so stop posting really because you're making a fool out of yourself. Not to mention that you keep speaking of the contract but I'm quite sure you didn't see it and if you did I have to agree with the guy saying you're from Mil. And even if you are you don't know anything about international law and that's a shame. well it does say his country is Australia ... Well that's my point, this guys keeps speaking for France when he's obviously not French. Because if he is, he better be trolling... @EvOr, and if you don't do your "pré-avis"'s time they will sue you. The only thing that could "save" Stephano is the retract time of the contract (if there was one to begin with). i'm not "speaking for france". i'm not french, as you guessed. i'm speaking up to say that stephano shouldn't be vilified for making an error of judgement then quickly changing his mind - and that compLexity shouldn't be making insane legal threats with no knowledge of the protections conferred on workers by nations other than the usa. I get it now, Australian communist party?
Yeah it's all communists and terrorists, USA USA yadda yadda. Are we done here?
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On September 20 2011 07:31 ZestyPickle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 07:30 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:28 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:18 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2011 07:17 anGe wrote:On September 20 2011 07:08 gulbanana wrote:On September 20 2011 07:06 Ubes wrote:On September 20 2011 07:03 Ruscour wrote:On September 20 2011 07:01 najreteip wrote:On September 20 2011 06:51 justinpal wrote:
[quote]
Stephano is 18? He is going to med school soon? Really? Why not? Going to university at 18 seems pretty normal to me I was gonna say, I'm at university right now and I'm 17, studying at uni at 18 isn't out of the norm at all.. Med School at 18 isn't the norm. in france, medical school begins at an undergraduate level. this is also true in australia, and many other places. there's a common theme in this thread: people assuming that the way things work in their country is the way they do, and should, work everywhere else. Well you don't know jack about France apparently. What you're saying about how you can quit your job at any time baffles me. You have to come to an agreement with your company otherwise it's legal for them to sue you so stop posting really because you're making a fool out of yourself. Not to mention that you keep speaking of the contract but I'm quite sure you didn't see it and if you did I have to agree with the guy saying you're from Mil. And even if you are you don't know anything about international law and that's a shame. well it does say his country is Australia ... Well that's my point, this guys keeps speaking for France when he's obviously not French. Because if he is, he better be trolling... @EvOr, and if you don't do your "pré-avis"'s time they will sue you. The only thing that could "save" Stephano is the retract time of the contract (if there was one to begin with). i'm not "speaking for france". i'm not french, as you guessed. i'm speaking up to say that stephano shouldn't be vilified for making an error of judgement then quickly changing his mind - and that compLexity shouldn't be making insane legal threats with no knowledge of the protections conferred on workers by nations other than the usa. I get it now, Australian communist party?
did you just accuse me of being a card-carrying communist? like this was freaking 1950 or something? have i posted through a timewarp into the mccarthy hearings?
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EPT
