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SxYSpAz
United States1451 Posts
if you play the macro game then they should be ahead since the only tech they've had to go for is infestors and lings. i like to use warp prisms, which works to keep the zerg moving around and spread out, i fear what would happen if WP were common tho. I guess we could spend more time to figure out if theres actually an imbalance... but looks like next patch is going to nerf them anyways.  | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
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LicH.
China235 Posts
On August 25 2011 16:09 synapse wrote: I would love if fungal made units really slow (yes, BW ensnare) instead of making them unable to move. Hehe basically combining plague and ensnare eh? | ||
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SxYSpAz
United States1451 Posts
On August 25 2011 15:58 ToastieNL wrote: Zerg POV: Infestor is very, very strong, currently. It may be TOO Strong. On the other hand, Infestors are the only VIABLE T2 we have for a straight up fight, Mutalisk don't fight well and Hydralisk... well, you know what. Corruptors are lame as shit, they don't count either. If you want to nerf Fungal bigtime, a buff to Hydralisk is required. If not, Zerg is going to go 3 base hatch tech into hive tech, failing pretty much always in the 5 minute window. Also, you get your Diehard gamechanging spellcaster at T1,5, with warp-in. Please put some effort in your post... are you calling hts T1.5?? the problem is that zerg jumps from ling to infestor and doesn't need any other tech all game. So they can kinda just make a fuckton of drones | ||
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
I loath infested terrans, because they don't make sense and they aren't zerg units. I loath neural parasite (np a tank? wtf). Fungal is meh, okay I guess. I liked the old defiler plague better, honestly. At least with plague, there would be the potential for 10 important units to just die with one muta. It was a cool bated breath moment in brood war. Fungal is boring compared to that. The burrow move mechanic is awkwardly hammered into the tech tree in that they couldn't find a way to unify it with roaches. Frankly it looks terrible. The overall model is okay, but it just the way it moves looks wrong to me. I don't think I can ever forgive blizzard for deciding that zerg balance should hinge on such a stupid unit. I hate that it really is one of the strongest units in the game, up there with collosus and tank. I almost have to use it in two matchups, and I find myself wondering if I shouldn't use it in all of them. | ||
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Bair
United States698 Posts
On August 25 2011 16:12 SxYSpAz wrote: are you calling hts T1.5?? the problem is that zerg jumps from ling to infestor and doesn't need any other tech all game. So they can kinda just make a fuckton of drones I believe he is talking about sentries. | ||
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prodiG
Canada2016 Posts
Those threads were ridiculous. On topic: Fungal pisses me off, but I play at a Diamond level and don't have spot-on feedbacks. | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
 ). I think there should be a nerf (8 secs again plz? Awesome stuff was enabled with that, and it was not OP), but other areas of zerg will need a buff to compensate (hydras?).Off topic: Its kinda annoying how balance discussions are always by people who are incredibly biased towards their own race, and will make context-less comparisons to other, completely different races and unit. Random represent :D | ||
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Siphonn
United States298 Posts
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iDrone
United States176 Posts
Is the infestor OP? ... no Is it too cheap? Sure Solution: +10sec Infestation Pit build time Infestor Cost Changed to 125/150 from 100/150 Infestor Burrowed Speed Decrease by .25? (not sure how big of an impact this will have) Why is the infestor not OP? because you can spread your units to minimize fungal growth damage (i don't clump banelings then complain about Colussus/Tank AoE dmg (ok I do but I believe it has a balance)) TBH Zerg needs the fungal damage to even dent a protoss deathball and fungal keeps terran honest while being aggressive (no 1 t a ftw) I actually don't see a problem with infestors... If you scout infestors, don't continue with an all in (i know thats what you were doing!!) instead, sit back and play more turtle/harass oriented. Don't push out until you have map control/vision. Its like scouting a reactor starport and not preparing for drop harass - Sure there is no real way to stop infestor harass; there is however, a way to minimize the harass. By proper detection placement, you minimize the room the infestor has in order to force unfavorable positions for the infested terrans. 30 infested terrans sitting behind a mineral line or on the edge of your base can only do so much damage. The infested terrans are incredibly slow, and are useless unless on hold position. They will stumble amongst themselves, and X% won't even be firing unless on hold position (even then, the ones that have nothing in range won't be attacking) Ok so you lose a nexus or you lose a lot of probes. Good thing you are on top of scouting doing everything you can to counter the potential threat of your opponent. Thats why you take bases faster than you need them =D. Lategame as Zerg I have multiple blank-ish bases, so when 1 dies I can just transfer to a new base. Honestly what is 400 minerals? Delay your timing attack for 15 seconds and get another base. As long as you aren't caught completely offguard by infestors, I honestly don't see them being any more effective in a fight then colussus/tank - only infestor is viable harass and awful in small battles, and colussus/tank aren't the best for harass ( you don't just send them off on their own to harass; map permitted) and great for small battles. My point is: With proper micro you can deal with infestors, just like you can deal with any other AoE with micro. ( by spreading units, target firing ) | ||
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EternalSC
Sweden313 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On August 25 2011 16:14 onmach wrote: God I hate infestors. It is just like a unit that they made up in 5 minutes and tossed in because they realized zerg only had 5 units. I loath infested terrans, because they don't make sense and they aren't zerg units. I loath neural parasite (np a tank? wtf). Fungal is meh, okay I guess. I liked the old defiler plague better, honestly. At least with plague, there would be the potential for 10 important units to just die with one muta. It was a cool bated breath moment in brood war. Fungal is boring compared to that. The burrow move mechanic is awkwardly hammered into the tech tree in that they couldn't find a way to unify it with roaches. Frankly it looks terrible. The overall model is okay, but it just the way it moves looks wrong to me. I don't think I can ever forgive blizzard for deciding that zerg balance should hinge on such a stupid unit. I hate that it really is one of the strongest units in the game, up there with collosus and tank. I almost have to use it in two matchups, and I find myself wondering if I shouldn't use it in all of them. Careful man, Blizz might give you infested zealots instead. If we consider the lore, then I suppose the infestor is at least somewhat consistent. It's definitely much more offensive, and lacks any of the anti-caster abilities that the other races have, which is kind of strange imo. | ||
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Timestreamer
Israel157 Posts
On August 25 2011 16:55 KimJongChill wrote: Careful man, Blizz might give you infested zealots instead. If we consider the lore, then I suppose the infestor is at least somewhat consistent. It's definitely much more offensive, and lacks any of the anti-caster abilities that the other races have, which is kind of strange imo. Oh, I don't know about that + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Xation
Canada147 Posts
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
On August 25 2011 16:12 LicH. wrote: Hehe basically combining plague and ensnare eh? Plague was pretty much a free spell that could bring down every unit except for the battlecruiser to 1hp. 300 damage unavoidable AoE spell that costs nothing due to consume. no one complained about it though lol, wasn't even actually used all that much until like 5 years after the game came out. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2communitycup/b/293240992 i will mainly base my statements on game 1 (starts at 8:30) since the other games were kinda meh + Show Spoiler + Grubby wins the Showmatch 3:0 anyway, game 2 and 3 seemed more like Destiny falling apart Grubby uses HT to absolutely destroy the infestor play, furthermore he even shows that it is really easy to deflect infestor harass: As soon as the observer spots the infestor hit squad, he warps in a couple HT nearby who have enough energy to instantly feedback all those infestors. Even though Grubby was slow to react, he maybe lost 1-2 probes and no Nexus whereas Destiny lost much more. Also if Grubby had an observer with his army during the first infestor raid, there would have been ~8 dead infestors (game ending right there, i watched Destiny's stream and he was sweating a lot since he knew one observer at the right position would seal his defeat) Infestor are a huge investment in gas; usually you cannot afford more than one unit category out of Mutalisks, Hydralisks, Brood lords, Ultralisks and Infestors As shown in the Showmatch the High templar/Archons (and Colossus, but much less) combined with Force Fields destroy every single zerg unit except maybe Brood lords, since Archons are pretty darn strong against Ultralisks and Mutalisks. Also note that infestors are large units which is both a curse for zerg. You might think that this would prevent them from taking too much AoE dmg (storm, EMP), but in reality they get sniped if not clumped up or feedbacked. Being that large means they are so hard to control getting safely to the front through your army, and once they are there they either get pushed in by your own units into the enemy or they block your units from reaching the enemy in one ball, so your units trickle in (and die horribly). I honestly think that infestors are strong, but they are both needed for zerg and not that hard to counter (as shown in the Showmatch). And when they get countered, zerg loses since zerg had to invest so much gas into them (they are not cheap at all!) If you do not make Ghosts/HT against infestors, it is the same as not getting Vikings against a Colossus ball. Sure you might pull off a lucky marauder stim to take them out, but most of the time you get annihilated. Same goes for infestors, you need counter units (which is a new concept for many people - having to counter zerg and not dictating everything yourself lol) so i think infestors do NOT deserve a nerf | ||
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ETisME
12911 Posts
On August 25 2011 16:08 kedinik wrote: ...Shouldn't get infestors because marine splits are too good against them? At least you have the chance to counter their micro with your micro and force mistakes. Which is not really true of muta/bane vs good marine/tank play as the marine count climbs. I am not saying they shouldn't. I am saying this is probably why the koreans prefer ling/baneling/muta composition. I watch Destiny's stream quite often and some of the patterns I find is that quite often infestors have to fungal a small group of stimmed 4 to 5 marines that are sent to kill off the infestors. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
Zergs production coupled with that upgrade makes the infestor hilariously versatile directly after an engagement or before, because they'll have faster more energy. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
"90 health, armored. Without upgrades, it can take 7 shots from a stalker, 5 shots from a marauder, 4 shots from a mobile tank, 2 shots from a siege tank, 10 ticks of the void ray's laser (starting from 0 charge), and three hits from an Ultralisk." ...on top of your post, it doesn`t serve any purpose, since none of these units are send alone on the battlefield. But if you see a single infestor with a marine, stalker, zergling ... you just kill it in seconds and are happy. (if the infestor uses his energy to kill that one unit he lost nevertheless) At another point you compare infested terrans with marines. why are you doing this? You could also compare a pair of zerglings with a Ravens Autoturret. Zergs can do much damage with the infestor, but they had to use it for more than a year now and learn. Often there just is no other midgame or even lategame option, but making infestors. In BW you could trade armys and rebuild another one before the enemy was attacking your base. In sc2 this doesnt work, because every race reinforces/moves much faster and when you lose a battle the game often ends seconds later. The infestor stalls forward pushing armys at least a bit and gives zerg real AOE damage (banes have to be in melee range and they often don`t work, because good opponents will dodge/kite/scan them). I would freaking love to play something like ling/roach/hydra from time to time, but it just doesn`t work.  Besides all that, terran and protoss have units especially designed to counter spellcasters. | ||
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brryjankens
Canada22 Posts
On August 25 2011 09:03 vOdToasT wrote: I don't think anyone above master level thinks they're hard to use. I mean, it's basic positioning and then F click F click F click. Pretty much like templars. Anyway, I am a T and Z user and I see no problem with them. I just don't see what imbalances they create. Would I want them to be harder to use? Of course, I want the game to have more micro in general, for every race. The only race that has even slightly interesting micro, in my opinion, is Terran. And Terran could still use more. the fact that 4 infesters summon like 2384928394 infested terrens and kill cc hatches ect. thats imba and a good example is destinys live stream a couple days ago won a game against some guy on the korean ladder. he was behind by alot but had alot of infesters, this guy had alot of ultras and he spammed infested terrens and won the game IMBA | ||
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