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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On August 25 2011 11:38 adiga wrote: I fear the day that zergs start utilizing infestors properly. max zerg amry + shit loads of infested terrans is my nightmares lately. :| you're not supposed to say that where Zerg players can read it. | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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IcedBacon
Canada906 Posts
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On August 25 2011 12:17 IcedBacon wrote: Infestors can be pretty ridiculous but it's pretty necessary to have in Zerg's arsenal considering the lack of diversity available. But still, their harassment potential is not as great as a hellion's and high templars are pretty amazing as well. It'll be interesting to see how HotS effects this. With another unit they can fill another niche role, and perhaps remove some utility from the Infestor. | ||
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FryktSkyene
United States1327 Posts
Holy wow. I knew it was good but 9.3? wowowowow | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
Nice post. =) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26667 Posts
I just think the unit is far, far, too much of a counter to everything that a Protoss can realistically put out in a composition. Not sure how they are against Terran. If I hear "oh make HT" as a suggestion to counter heavy infestor play one more time I'm going to freak. You cannot have anywhere near equivalent numbers of HT to Infestors because the zerg can survive the early game with pretty much solely mineral dumping on lings and crawlers We'll see how the metagame shifts, and props to those who have popularised the use of this great unit. Iroaches Looking forward to HoTS a lot, I'm not confident it'll happen but I really hope the races are tweaked to reflect their 'identity' more. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On August 25 2011 09:13 seoulsun wrote: u do know that without infestors zerg were pretty shit this was blizzard attempt to fix a broken race Well they've had infestors for the past year man... Sure the buff was pretty big, but not THAT huge after all. They still killed marines and workers in the same way before if I recall correctly. Just that you had to wait a couple of seconds, but hey - they can't move, can they? Imo the energy buff is a bit much, when they removed it from protoss while it wasn't even that complained about afaik. People were moaning about collosi at the time, so they nerf the other alternative -_- Remove the energy buff and it'll atleast make them slightly less volatile in the game in the sence of 'either you have them and you're winning - or you don't and you're probably about to lose' Edit. Also zergs had lots of success even when they were at their low point. Broken my ass. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
Zergs can do fine against terran with muta ling bling, bane roach, and TvP was zerg favored even before the buff. Whilst I think that each individual role of the infestor (stopping/slowing pushes, attacking, harassing, controlling space) are all only slightly imbalanced, when you look at the unit as a whole, I feel that it fills too many roles. It should either be a harass unit, a space controlling unit, an attacking unit, or a defending unit, and it should definitely not be all of the above. Look at the ghost, ghosts have very limited harass potential (can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds), ghosts can't really control space except for nuke, which costs 100/100 and is very unreliable and slow, ghosts don't do great in a straight up fight compared to the ammount of other bio you could make in that ammount of rax time. HTs kinda fill the same roles as templar, and can be made into archons. sidenote: Hts require 2 emps to clean their energy, and than another 2 to remove sheilds from the archons, is that so balanced? Anyways, I think with 3 fungals to kill marines before stim, 2 after stim is balanced for straight up fights, and 35 energy for infested terrans. The movement speed needs to be reduced to that of ghosts or slightly slower, same speed as ghosts on creep, and burrow needs to slow them down a ton. that would limit their role to be smaller so that zergs can't effectively spamm mass infestors, and be able to defend, pressure, control the map, all without any other tech, and the fact that infestors stack means that this is a bit overpowered. The efficiency of infestors and the ease of retention is also a bit of a problem, both ghosts and templars are super hard to retain and retrain, but with lings on the feild having burrow, fast burrow speed, and super long range on all their abilities makes them practically unkillable for terran, at least toss have blink. Edit: A solution to the problem in TvZ could be some way to make our tanks mobile, e.g. some sort of mine. sidenote v2: I haven't played or watched too much bw, but I think that zergs should use baneling mines like lurkers on ramps and other chokes, it's pretty much the same effect, right? I think that once zergs realize this they'll find that they can rely on them similary, and then utilize that space control to great effect and cut corners in other areas. people saying zerg is a weak race are just wrong, banelings, mutas, lings, roaches, all very very powerful units, lings beat marines without medivacs cost per cost, and can be produced for much cheaper than rax units. | ||
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Code
Canada634 Posts
I wonder how it would effect the power of the Infestor if units could slowly move while hit by fungal. I'm talking like a slow, slow crawl. Maybe enough that if a group of marines are hit, if you micro them quick enough you could split them or spread them a bit so the next fungal wont hit all of them and you can minimize the damage. Or if an air unit is hit, it can possibly get away if its far enough from a cliff. This would add more micro if anything. It should still stop spells like blink from being used but depending how much it slowed units it might be a pretty big nerf. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 25 2011 13:08 Euronyme wrote: Well they've had infestors for the past year man... Sure the buff was pretty big, but not THAT huge after all. They still killed marines and workers in the same way before if I recall correctly. Just that you had to wait a couple of seconds, but hey - they can't move, can they? Imo the energy buff is a bit much, when they removed it from protoss while it wasn't even that complained about afaik. People were moaning about collosi at the time, so they nerf the other alternative -_- Remove the energy buff and it'll atleast make them slightly less volatile in the game in the sence of 'either you have them and you're winning - or you don't and you're probably about to lose' Edit. Also zergs had lots of success even when they were at their low point. Broken my ass. Medivacs could outheal a lot of the damage before the buff, so I disagree, the buff was pretty big. On the other hand, infested terran as a spell is very underused and is absurdly strong, they had that before. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
The infestor is INCREDIBLY strong. I'm not going to lie. ZvZ is centered around that one unit. It has a ton of options when used with burrow/drops and like the OP says it has an amazing maximum damage output. It's hard to use though, and you need other units to support it. Is it OP? Yeah, maybe. It's fricken powerful. But you know, it has to be. What would be the ultralisk without fungal growth? Even more useless than it really is. Broodlords and Corruptors could be easily dealt with using only marines and vikings, and tanks if lings are around. Anything in the mid to late game relies ENTIRELY on the infestors simply because Zerg lacks any other strong army composition. Ghosts and Templars are really good too, but they aren't absolutely necessary. The terrible Ultralisk and Banelings are the only true AoE damaging unit in the zerg arsenal. The banelings in late game wouldn't hit shit if it wasn't for the infestors...we wouldn't be able to deal with mech or the protoss death ball ect ect ect. TL;DR, ya the infestor might be OP but since the rest of zerg would be so terrible without it nerfing it would mean balancing a lot of other stuff.... | ||
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tymt
Sweden293 Posts
On August 25 2011 13:18 CatNzHat wrote: Infestors are fun to watch, and buffing them certainly made the game more valuable as an e-sport, but it does not make it fun to play against them, and it did imbalance the game by a large ammount. Zergs can do fine against terran with muta ling bling, bane roach, and TvP was zerg favored even before the buff. Whilst I think that each individual role of the infestor (stopping/slowing pushes, attacking, harassing, controlling space) are all only slightly imbalanced, when you look at the unit as a whole, I feel that it fills too many roles. It should either be a harass unit, a space controlling unit, an attacking unit, or a defending unit, and it should definitely not be all of the above. Look at the ghost, ghosts have very limited harass potential (can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds), ghosts can't really control space except for nuke, which costs 100/100 and is very unreliable and slow, ghosts don't do great in a straight up fight compared to the ammount of other bio you could make in that ammount of rax time. HTs kinda fill the same roles as templar, and can be made into archons. sidenote: Hts require 2 emps to clean their energy, and than another 2 to remove sheilds from the archons, is that so balanced? Anyways, I think with 3 fungals to kill marines before stim, 2 after stim is balanced for straight up fights, and 35 energy for infested terrans. The movement speed needs to be reduced to that of ghosts or slightly slower, same speed as ghosts on creep, and burrow needs to slow them down a ton. that would limit their role to be smaller so that zergs can't effectively spamm mass infestors, and be able to defend, pressure, control the map, all without any other tech, and the fact that infestors stack means that this is a bit overpowered. The efficiency of infestors and the ease of retention is also a bit of a problem, both ghosts and templars are super hard to retain and retrain, but with lings on the feild having burrow, fast burrow speed, and super long range on all their abilities makes them practically unkillable for terran, at least toss have blink. Edit: A solution to the problem in TvZ could be some way to make our tanks mobile, e.g. some sort of mine. sidenote v2: I haven't played or watched too much bw, but I think that zergs should use baneling mines like lurkers on ramps and other chokes, it's pretty much the same effect, right? I think that once zergs realize this they'll find that they can rely on them similary, and then utilize that space control to great effect and cut corners in other areas. people saying zerg is a weak race are just wrong, banelings, mutas, lings, roaches, all very very powerful units, lings beat marines without medivacs cost per cost, and can be produced for much cheaper than rax units. Well to be fair, terran have hellions, banshees, drops and reapers as their harass units. This is overall the most terran biased post I have read in a very long time. Zergs are using baneling mines, some more than others, and of course not everyone. But it is used and it does not have the same effect as lurkers. Lurkers can still hold their own if there is detection, burrowed banelings can not. I'm not trying to point out that zerg is a weaker race, but you make it sound as if zerg is unbeatable as terran, even without infestors. | ||
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levarien11111
United States61 Posts
if fucking infestor is a tier 2 untis make fucking templar a tier 2 unit isntead of a tier 3 units that takes fucking forever to get and upgrade storm dts would be op as hell though if they were tier 2 so i dont mind that they are tier 3 just not templar. what would templar do for the protoss? storm its fucking great yo feedback destroys infestor energy and with it being more available we can get it faster i want my tier 2 spellcasters that can rape heres the thing templar are slow and weak but the infestors has a fucking storm that can make you not move? heres the thing make it like fucking plague this is bullshit when im sitting there and all this fucking time im thinking how the hell is this fair when my army cant move and yours can this is bullshit for a tier 2 spellcaster here is some fixes make fungal growth like plague which im cool with i can still move my units. make the infestor cost more gas making it harder to mass make the infestor tier 3 instead of tier 2 effectively evening the playing field with how slowly you get templar and zergs actually have to control their armys | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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reptile
United States210 Posts
Infestors power is questionable, but without it, Zerg is way too weak. I think the real issue here is that Zerg's early and mid game units are just too weak and easily dealt with by their opponents equivalent. Terran can tech very quickly while still creating low cost, extremely effective units. Protoss tech is slower, however, their early game units are powerful and are very cost efficient Zerg tech is very slow, and their early game units are all throw away units. Lings never survive a battle, and roaches can result in too much delayed tech and resource dump. It's hard to figure out how many Roaches you'll need to survive, so it starts damaging your economy and tech situation. Infestor mid game basically alleviates all of those concerns, but there also isn't any pressure on the opposing races to attack, and that's where Infestors really shine. In the defensive position, Infestors are much more effective, but when on the offensive, dealing with a turtled opponent often results in failed attacks. Look at broodwar(I know it's a completely different game), Zerglings were far more effective, and because of Hydras being T1.5, Zerg didn't need to rely on a powerful T2 unit to survive. In SC2, Zerg has no offensive/defensive unit that can deal with air until Lair tech. I think the entire tech tree of Zerg needs to be reanalyzed and shifted so that things like the Infestor can be properly balanced. Conclusion: I think the biggest flaw to the Zerg, and the tech tree, was the switch of the Roach and Hydra. If those two units could be changed and reworked to fit the proper position in tech, Zerg wouldn't have such an abusive reliance on a unit like the Infestor. | ||
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ETisME
12703 Posts
But, korean zerg has shown that good zerg only uses it for support, rarely any infestors for harassment. I don't think I have seen any infested terran in any of the GSL matches ling/banelings/muta is still the best choice against a terran siege tank marine push ling, roache agression preventing a protoss third or quick tech to broodlords with roache+hyrdas is still the popular choice for zerg against the protoss deathball | ||
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KanoCoke
Japan863 Posts
It's probably the best spellcaster in the whole game, and I'm surprised that some ultra-high level Zerg players don't use them enough. | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On August 25 2011 13:18 CatNzHat wrote: Infestors are fun to watch, and buffing them certainly made the game more valuable as an e-sport, but it does not make it fun to play against them, and it did imbalance the game by a large ammount. Zergs can do fine against terran with muta ling bling, bane roach, and TvP was zerg favored even before the buff. Whilst I think that each individual role of the infestor (stopping/slowing pushes, attacking, harassing, controlling space) are all only slightly imbalanced, when you look at the unit as a whole, I feel that it fills too many roles. It should either be a harass unit, a space controlling unit, an attacking unit, or a defending unit, and it should definitely not be all of the above. Look at the ghost, ghosts have very limited harass potential (can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds), ghosts can't really control space except for nuke, which costs 100/100 and is very unreliable and slow, ghosts don't do great in a straight up fight compared to the ammount of other bio you could make in that ammount of rax time. HTs kinda fill the same roles as templar, and can be made into archons. sidenote: Hts require 2 emps to clean their energy, and than another 2 to remove sheilds from the archons, is that so balanced? Anyways, I think with 3 fungals to kill marines before stim, 2 after stim is balanced for straight up fights, and 35 energy for infested terrans. The movement speed needs to be reduced to that of ghosts or slightly slower, same speed as ghosts on creep, and burrow needs to slow them down a ton. that would limit their role to be smaller so that zergs can't effectively spamm mass infestors, and be able to defend, pressure, control the map, all without any other tech, and the fact that infestors stack means that this is a bit overpowered. The efficiency of infestors and the ease of retention is also a bit of a problem, both ghosts and templars are super hard to retain and retrain, but with lings on the feild having burrow, fast burrow speed, and super long range on all their abilities makes them practically unkillable for terran, at least toss have blink. Edit: A solution to the problem in TvZ could be some way to make our tanks mobile, e.g. some sort of mine. sidenote v2: I haven't played or watched too much bw, but I think that zergs should use baneling mines like lurkers on ramps and other chokes, it's pretty much the same effect, right? I think that once zergs realize this they'll find that they can rely on them similary, and then utilize that space control to great effect and cut corners in other areas. people saying zerg is a weak race are just wrong, banelings, mutas, lings, roaches, all very very powerful units, lings beat marines without medivacs cost per cost, and can be produced for much cheaper than rax units. I'm not sure if you're trolling or not so I'm just going to say that these are all god awful ideas. 3 fungals to kill marines? Mobile tanks? Investor has long range? | ||
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