On August 25 2011 13:18 CatNzHat wrote: Infestors are fun to watch, and buffing them certainly made the game more valuable as an e-sport, but it does not make it fun to play against them, and it did imbalance the game by a large ammount.
Zergs can do fine against terran with muta ling bling, bane roach, and TvP was zerg favored even before the buff.
Whilst I think that each individual role of the infestor (stopping/slowing pushes, attacking, harassing, controlling space) are all only slightly imbalanced, when you look at the unit as a whole, I feel that it fills too many roles. It should either be a harass unit, a space controlling unit, an attacking unit, or a defending unit, and it should definitely not be all of the above.
Look at the ghost, ghosts have very limited harass potential (can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds), ghosts can't really control space except for nuke, which costs 100/100 and is very unreliable and slow, ghosts don't do great in a straight up fight compared to the ammount of other bio you could make in that ammount of rax time.
HTs kinda fill the same roles as templar, and can be made into archons.
sidenote: Hts require 2 emps to clean their energy, and than another 2 to remove sheilds from the archons, is that so balanced?
Anyways, I think with 3 fungals to kill marines before stim, 2 after stim is balanced for straight up fights, and 35 energy for infested terrans. The movement speed needs to be reduced to that of ghosts or slightly slower, same speed as ghosts on creep, and burrow needs to slow them down a ton. that would limit their role to be smaller so that zergs can't effectively spamm mass infestors, and be able to defend, pressure, control the map, all without any other tech, and the fact that infestors stack means that this is a bit overpowered. The efficiency of infestors and the ease of retention is also a bit of a problem, both ghosts and templars are super hard to retain and retrain, but with lings on the feild having burrow, fast burrow speed, and super long range on all their abilities makes them practically unkillable for terran, at least toss have blink.
Edit: A solution to the problem in TvZ could be some way to make our tanks mobile, e.g. some sort of mine.
sidenote v2: I haven't played or watched too much bw, but I think that zergs should use baneling mines like lurkers on ramps and other chokes, it's pretty much the same effect, right? I think that once zergs realize this they'll find that they can rely on them similary, and then utilize that space control to great effect and cut corners in other areas. people saying zerg is a weak race are just wrong, banelings, mutas, lings, roaches, all very very powerful units, lings beat marines without medivacs cost per cost, and can be produced for much cheaper than rax units.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not so I'm just going to say that these are all god awful ideas. 3 fungals to kill marines? Mobile tanks? Investor has long range?
He has to be trolling. He said Ghosts don't have harass potential, which they clearly do. He said they can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds, no, no, they can't, they can kill 40 workers instantly. It's called a Nuke. Yes it takes time, but with a 2 pronged attack, a decent player can still be caught off guard. And ghosts are amazing in straight up fights, they're very strong.
On August 25 2011 14:04 ETisME wrote: In theory, they are really good. But, korean zerg has shown that good zerg only uses it for support, rarely any infestors for harassment. I don't think I have seen any infested terran in any of the GSL matches
ling/banelings/muta is still the best choice against a terran siege tank marine push ling, roache agression preventing a protoss third or quick tech to broodlords with roache+hyrdas is still the popular choice for zerg against the protoss deathball
Yeah, it's really amazing Koreans haven't caught on to the Destiny style. They are not stupid tho. They must have a pact not to do it unless in case of extreme emergency in order not to get hit with nerf bat. Snipping expos at 10-11 min mark is just awesome ad Destiny does it like every other time I see him play.
On August 25 2011 13:18 CatNzHat wrote: Infestors are fun to watch, and buffing them certainly made the game more valuable as an e-sport, but it does not make it fun to play against them, and it did imbalance the game by a large ammount.
Zergs can do fine against terran with muta ling bling, bane roach, and TvP was zerg favored even before the buff.
Whilst I think that each individual role of the infestor (stopping/slowing pushes, attacking, harassing, controlling space) are all only slightly imbalanced, when you look at the unit as a whole, I feel that it fills too many roles. It should either be a harass unit, a space controlling unit, an attacking unit, or a defending unit, and it should definitely not be all of the above.
Look at the ghost, ghosts have very limited harass potential (can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds), ghosts can't really control space except for nuke, which costs 100/100 and is very unreliable and slow, ghosts don't do great in a straight up fight compared to the ammount of other bio you could make in that ammount of rax time.
HTs kinda fill the same roles as templar, and can be made into archons.
sidenote: Hts require 2 emps to clean their energy, and than another 2 to remove sheilds from the archons, is that so balanced?
Anyways, I think with 3 fungals to kill marines before stim, 2 after stim is balanced for straight up fights, and 35 energy for infested terrans. The movement speed needs to be reduced to that of ghosts or slightly slower, same speed as ghosts on creep, and burrow needs to slow them down a ton. that would limit their role to be smaller so that zergs can't effectively spamm mass infestors, and be able to defend, pressure, control the map, all without any other tech, and the fact that infestors stack means that this is a bit overpowered. The efficiency of infestors and the ease of retention is also a bit of a problem, both ghosts and templars are super hard to retain and retrain, but with lings on the feild having burrow, fast burrow speed, and super long range on all their abilities makes them practically unkillable for terran, at least toss have blink.
Edit: A solution to the problem in TvZ could be some way to make our tanks mobile, e.g. some sort of mine.
sidenote v2: I haven't played or watched too much bw, but I think that zergs should use baneling mines like lurkers on ramps and other chokes, it's pretty much the same effect, right? I think that once zergs realize this they'll find that they can rely on them similary, and then utilize that space control to great effect and cut corners in other areas. people saying zerg is a weak race are just wrong, banelings, mutas, lings, roaches, all very very powerful units, lings beat marines without medivacs cost per cost, and can be produced for much cheaper than rax units.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not so I'm just going to say that these are all god awful ideas. 3 fungals to kill marines? Mobile tanks? Investor has long range?
He has to be trolling. He said Ghosts don't have harass potential, which they clearly do. He said they can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds, no, no, they can't, they can kill 40 workers instantly. It's called a Nuke. Yes it takes time, but with a 2 pronged attack, a decent player can still be caught off guard. And ghosts are amazing in straight up fights, they're very strong.
You could drop ghosts and use snipe also. tQInkarnate did it against coLCatZ and it was pretty damn cool to watch. The game starts at 19:40 into the video.
On August 25 2011 14:04 ETisME wrote: In theory, they are really good. But, korean zerg has shown that good zerg only uses it for support, rarely any infestors for harassment. I don't think I have seen any infested terran in any of the GSL matches
ling/banelings/muta is still the best choice against a terran siege tank marine push ling, roache agression preventing a protoss third or quick tech to broodlords with roache+hyrdas is still the popular choice for zerg against the protoss deathball
Yeah, it's really amazing Koreans haven't caught on to the Destiny style. They are not stupid tho. They must have a pact not to do it unless in case of extreme emergency in order not to get hit with nerf bat. Snipping expos at 10-11 min mark is just awesome ad Destiny does it like every other time I see him play.
I believe that destiny said it himself that he cannot opt for a quick 3rd for this style or he will get rolled and that's a big disadvantage for this style. I think for Koreans, they are preferring muta because a good marine split can neglect fungal easily unless you are only going ling and all gas to infestor.
it is really good against a protoss but not so much against a marine tank terran imo.
AOE Attack Fungal - HP Nuke AOE Attack Fungal - Few Second Stun AOE Attack Fungal - Reveal Invisible Units Summon Infested Terran - Only 25 Energy Summon Infested Terran - 9 DPS Unit Summon Infested Terran - Able to use from burrowed position Attachment Neural Parasite - Takes Control of 6+ Food unit, etc... Attachment Neural Parasite - Able to attack, build, & use opposing unit skills Attachment Neural Parasite - Range of what, 14?
You would think this unit should cost 300/300 for what you can do with it.
On August 25 2011 14:04 ETisME wrote: In theory, they are really good. But, korean zerg has shown that good zerg only uses it for support, rarely any infestors for harassment. I don't think I have seen any infested terran in any of the GSL matches
ling/banelings/muta is still the best choice against a terran siege tank marine push ling, roache agression preventing a protoss third or quick tech to broodlords with roache+hyrdas is still the popular choice for zerg against the protoss deathball
Yeah, it's really amazing Koreans haven't caught on to the Destiny style. They are not stupid tho. They must have a pact not to do it unless in case of extreme emergency in order not to get hit with nerf bat. Snipping expos at 10-11 min mark is just awesome ad Destiny does it like every other time I see him play.
I believe that destiny said it himself that he cannot opt for a quick 3rd for this style or he will get rolled and that's a big disadvantage for this style. I think for Koreans, they are preferring muta because a good marine split can neglect fungal easily unless you are only going ling and all gas to infestor.
it is really good against a protoss but not so much against a marine tank terran imo.
But marine splitting rapes baneling even harder, I remember there was a video around showing this crazy marine micro obliterating baneling. The only time they become useful is when you catch people in a flanking position. On another note, fungal stops a terrans ability to micro out of bad positions and you only need to catch that group ONCE for half a second and a group of 10 marines die instantly. There is no "Oh shit, Baneling coming, split!" Once it happens, you lose.
I think it makes a marines weaker to infestor as opposed to muta/ling/bling at least in most situations. I should say muta/ling/bling has a higher potential overall for damage if you catch a terran offguard, but an infestor does way more consistent damage and is overall way more versatile.
The main difference after the infestor buff is located in their role. Before, they were used to hold an army still while roaches/banelings did the rest of the job. Now you can basically kill small/medium sized groups only using fungal. And considering that it HOLDS those units in place it is really really easy to get another fungal 2-3 seconds later in the fray. Out of all the casters, infestors are probably the easiest to play with.
Also, no defensive capabilities? What about fungal+run/burrow? Or the fact that you can send cheap zerglings to sacrifice themselves?
On August 25 2011 14:59 Nizzy wrote: AOE Attack Fungal - HP Nuke AOE Attack Fungal - Few Second Stun AOE Attack Fungal - Reveal Invisible Units Summon Infested Terran - Only 25 Energy Summon Infested Terran - 9 DPS Unit Summon Infested Terran - Able to use from burrowed position Attachment Neural Parasite - Takes Control of 6+ Food unit, etc... Attachment Neural Parasite - Able to attack, build, & use opposing unit skills Attachment Neural Parasite - Range of what, 14?
You would think this unit should cost 300/300 for what you can do with it.
Unreal IMO.
You forgot the part about them being noticeable lumps of wet paper with only 90 hp.
Or the part about infested terrans lasting for only 30 secs and being slow as hell
Or that Neural costs 100 energy, has to be researched, the infestor can't move, and it only lasts 15 seconds...
On August 25 2011 13:18 CatNzHat wrote: Infestors are fun to watch, and buffing them certainly made the game more valuable as an e-sport, but it does not make it fun to play against them, and it did imbalance the game by a large ammount.
Zergs can do fine against terran with muta ling bling, bane roach, and TvP was zerg favored even before the buff.
Whilst I think that each individual role of the infestor (stopping/slowing pushes, attacking, harassing, controlling space) are all only slightly imbalanced, when you look at the unit as a whole, I feel that it fills too many roles. It should either be a harass unit, a space controlling unit, an attacking unit, or a defending unit, and it should definitely not be all of the above.
Look at the ghost, ghosts have very limited harass potential (can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds), ghosts can't really control space except for nuke, which costs 100/100 and is very unreliable and slow, ghosts don't do great in a straight up fight compared to the ammount of other bio you could make in that ammount of rax time.
HTs kinda fill the same roles as templar, and can be made into archons.
sidenote: Hts require 2 emps to clean their energy, and than another 2 to remove sheilds from the archons, is that so balanced?
Anyways, I think with 3 fungals to kill marines before stim, 2 after stim is balanced for straight up fights, and 35 energy for infested terrans. The movement speed needs to be reduced to that of ghosts or slightly slower, same speed as ghosts on creep, and burrow needs to slow them down a ton. that would limit their role to be smaller so that zergs can't effectively spamm mass infestors, and be able to defend, pressure, control the map, all without any other tech, and the fact that infestors stack means that this is a bit overpowered. The efficiency of infestors and the ease of retention is also a bit of a problem, both ghosts and templars are super hard to retain and retrain, but with lings on the feild having burrow, fast burrow speed, and super long range on all their abilities makes them practically unkillable for terran, at least toss have blink.
Edit: A solution to the problem in TvZ could be some way to make our tanks mobile, e.g. some sort of mine.
sidenote v2: I haven't played or watched too much bw, but I think that zergs should use baneling mines like lurkers on ramps and other chokes, it's pretty much the same effect, right? I think that once zergs realize this they'll find that they can rely on them similary, and then utilize that space control to great effect and cut corners in other areas. people saying zerg is a weak race are just wrong, banelings, mutas, lings, roaches, all very very powerful units, lings beat marines without medivacs cost per cost, and can be produced for much cheaper than rax units.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not so I'm just going to say that these are all god awful ideas. 3 fungals to kill marines? Mobile tanks? Investor has long range?
He has to be trolling. He said Ghosts don't have harass potential, which they clearly do. He said they can't kill 40 workers in 7 seconds, no, no, they can't, they can kill 40 workers instantly. It's called a Nuke. Yes it takes time, but with a 2 pronged attack, a decent player can still be caught off guard. And ghosts are amazing in straight up fights, they're very strong.
You could drop ghosts and use snipe also. tQInkarnate did it against coLCatZ and it was pretty damn cool to watch. The game starts at 19:40 into the video.
On August 25 2011 14:59 Nizzy wrote: AOE Attack Fungal - HP Nuke AOE Attack Fungal - Few Second Stun AOE Attack Fungal - Reveal Invisible Units Summon Infested Terran - Only 25 Energy Summon Infested Terran - 9 DPS Unit Summon Infested Terran - Able to use from burrowed position Attachment Neural Parasite - Takes Control of 6+ Food unit, etc... Attachment Neural Parasite - Able to attack, build, & use opposing unit skills Attachment Neural Parasite - Range of what, 14?
You would think this unit should cost 300/300 for what you can do with it.
Unreal IMO.
NP range 9. Takes control of the unit for few seconds before that units revenges himself by killing the stupid 90hp infestor who though he was cool.
The infestor needs to be changed, but not in damage, it just needs a slowing rather than a freezing effect. It impedes micro rather than just taking it away that way and it could give some way of getting a dropship or a viking out of the clutches of a fungal and it adds more timings to the spell ( you can't just wait for the end of the spell to recast it again, you might have to recast it halfway to make sure you hit the units, sacrificing less damage to more damage overall ).
If you change the infestors damage output, you will unneccesarily make it a crap unit without adressing the true issue.
The same is true in a lesser extent to forcefield. Instead of making it invincible, you should have a way to deal with forcefields rather than Tier 3 units. If the protoss units are weaker because of it, buff them a little. This should encourage protoss to not go 12 sentry 3 zealot in the early game and just straight up die when zerglings slip in and surround them.
Infestor is very, very strong, currently. It may be TOO Strong.
On the other hand, Infestors are the only VIABLE T2 we have for a straight up fight, Mutalisk don't fight well and Hydralisk... well, you know what. Corruptors are lame as shit, they don't count either.
If you want to nerf Fungal bigtime, a buff to Hydralisk is required. If not, Zerg is going to go 3 base hatch tech into hive tech, failing pretty much always in the 5 minute window.
Also, you get your Diehard gamechanging spellcaster at T1,5, with warp-in. Please put some effort in your post...
Wow, never knew that infested marines commit suicide! :o Anyways, yes they do have great dps, but as far as I understand, that is the basis of the 4 infestor hit squad.
On August 25 2011 14:04 ETisME wrote: In theory, they are really good. But, korean zerg has shown that good zerg only uses it for support, rarely any infestors for harassment. I don't think I have seen any infested terran in any of the GSL matches
ling/banelings/muta is still the best choice against a terran siege tank marine push ling, roache agression preventing a protoss third or quick tech to broodlords with roache+hyrdas is still the popular choice for zerg against the protoss deathball
Yeah, it's really amazing Koreans haven't caught on to the Destiny style. They are not stupid tho. They must have a pact not to do it unless in case of extreme emergency in order not to get hit with nerf bat. Snipping expos at 10-11 min mark is just awesome ad Destiny does it like every other time I see him play.
I believe that destiny said it himself that he cannot opt for a quick 3rd for this style or he will get rolled and that's a big disadvantage for this style. I think for Koreans, they are preferring muta because a good marine split can neglect fungal easily unless you are only going ling and all gas to infestor.
it is really good against a protoss but not so much against a marine tank terran imo.
...Shouldn't get infestors because marine splits are too good against them?
At least you have the chance to counter their micro with your micro and force mistakes.
Which is not really true of muta/bane vs good marine/tank play as the marine count climbs.
EPT
