|
Infestors, used correctly, are deadly and extremely hard to beat 
I think that one of the abilities should be taken away or nerfed at least because it is extremely hard to protect yourself from fungal growth killing your whole army or infested terrans screwing up your probes and main bases.
Although good infestor play is extremely entertaining to watch as the opponent falls apart from superior infestor control, I still feel like they should do something to make it less threatening. For example, they might lower the life of the infestor so it dies quicker and can't use the energy as much as it could have if it had lived.
|
infestors aren't overpowered..they're just good, actually the best unit of zerg (better than tier 3) that's the truth
|
A few games back some douche bag nueral'd my infestors then fungalled my army with my energy.
What a douche.
|
what I've always felt that made fungal growth "imbalanced" ist the fact that you can NOT avoid being chain-fungalled by....anything
I go back to my warcraft 3 experience (I was orc): orc units were very vulnerable to opponents' spells like slow, etc. This sucked, nevertheless this was why orcs had TWO ways to disable spells - purge (single target) and disenchant (aoe; required research).
There is NOTHING that either terran or protoss can do once we are fungalled. From a competitve gaming view this is just terrible. EMP-ing, let alone feedbacking all infestors is not possible in lategame. I mean, fungal growth would be a good spell even if it did ZERO damage - completely removing the ability to MOVE is a frickin amazing ability dammit.....especially since you also have broodlords.
It's this exact combination:
a) no movement (not just slow)
b) aoe damage (actually quite high)
c) NO WAY OF REMOVING IT
I sincerely hope Blizz adds units in HotS that have a spell that removes stuff like fungal and forcefields - because this would enable the opponent to have a micro/skill-based response to this.
|
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
That....Kitty picture...IS THE DON!!!! haha! awesome!
|
infestor is the strongest and most versatile unit in the game, for sure, but the rest of zerg is shitty compared.
zergling - good overall except for the fact that they are very vulnerable to AoE.
baneling - awesome if they get into the thick of things, but too expensive to use as anything but a niche unit. (banelings vs marines is a niche since the banelings are normally not used for any purpose at all except killing marines)
roach - good and very cost effective in small numbers, but cost way too much supply to be viable in the late-game
queen - so immobile it is basicly static defense and a part of your base, an army containing queens are very resilient to damage and can be used together with T3 (everything else dies faster than you can click on them) to great effect, but if hardcountered by HT or ghost you will instantly lose because you have spent too much time getting queens which is the only zerg unit not built from larvae.
hydralisk - a zerg marine, but has less dps/cost less hp/cost, higher in tech, keep all vulnerabilities of the marine and is slower than the average zerg unit, so it becomes annoying to use.
mutalisk - an excellent harrasser, but any unit that can fire at it, fights cost efficiently with it, exception voidray (yes vikings are cost efficient vs mutas, 4 vikings beat 3 mutas, both cost 300 gas, the problem is that terrans can't produce 4 vikings per 3 enemy mutas, due to not having enough production).
corruptor - only useful as 1. a shield for broodlords from small numbers of vikings 2. a collossi killer 3. morphing into broodlords 4. keeping air-control vs phoenixes and 5. uselessly hanging around on the map after their initial purpose have dissappeared.
infestor - a very very good unit if it has energy, else useless, but most of the time it has energy and wreak havoc on the opponent in whatever way you wish.
broodlord - is very susceptible to aerial attacks, have excellent offensive power vs ground units, but slow and surprisingly weak when fired at, a non AoE zerg colossi on higher tech (alt. a very strange way of applying AoE).
ultralisk - big, bulky and very susceptible to bonus damage vs armoured, which is like, every 2nd non-zerg unit, cannot be zoned, which helps in bringing the ultralisk to the fight, but can still be kited by most ranged units cost-efficiently.
|
Awesome OP!!!
Like the other posters here, what makes me think of the infestor as an 'imbalanced' unit is the fact that you can literally do nothing about the units the get fungalled. Neural Parasite is fine, Infested Terran is fine (but hella annoying when like 20 pop up to your brand new saturated base D: ), but Fungal growth is one of the few abilities, and certainly the easiest one to control ( I guess the other being FF), that has the potential to turn that one tiny little mistake of yours, and transform it into an INSTANT victory.
This goes more for TvZ than for anything else, as the protoss units that are commonly fungalled have significantly more health and are more resistant to bunching together. (compared to marines)
A good example of this is the recent games (a few hours ago) of MajOr vs Destiny SO SPOILERS AHEAD:+ Show Spoiler +I know that the play here isn't really the tip top korean bonjwa vs bonjwa level play, but it's still at least as high level as to use as an example. Destiny, who had not been ahead but not exactly been behind the entire game, decides to move out with his trademark Infestor/Ling/Roach/Broodlord combo. MajOr, who has been preparing for this, starts taking potshots at the broodlords with his ball of probably 8-12 vikings. He stays there a fraction of a second too late, gets every viking fungaled by a single infestor, and from there the game is over. Losing all those vikings gives MajOr nothing to combat the broodlords. Though he stayed in for a little while longer, the game was lost at that point. This is because the vikings, once fungalled, are dead. Literally NOTHING can be done at this level of play to save the vikings.
Same thing with marines (Though to a lesser extent in my opinion); 1 infestor can kill 20+ supply of marines with 2 fungals, and likewise there is nothing that can be done about it unless you already have tanks seiged to prevent the second fungal from coming down and finishing them off, virtually inviting the lings to come in and clean up.
I would say that there are two solutions for this (actually only two that i'll explain in retrospect, and 1 of them isn't even viable -.-), and neither one of them is the small damage nerf that blizzard incorporated (though that is a really simple way to approach and I'm genuinely curious to see how it will effect the matchup(s))
1: Prevent air units from stacking. This would solve the problem of having that 1 clump of mutas/vikings/phoenix insta-killed before your very eyes and I think would probably work for the most part as a long term solution, though this would obviously destroy control for air units as we knew it.
2: Instead of immobilize, slow. I think this is a better choice. Slow 50-80% so you can still get money fungals on marines, and if you're lucky, take a hell of a lot of them out, but so you can't instant-win just by getting a single lucky chain fungal on a clump of air units (this goes pretty much exclusively for combatting broodlords)
As it is, the infestor I feel is way too much of a Swiss Army Knife kind of unit: It can do the roles of almost everything (drop prevention, eco/base harass, sniping, creating positioning for your army, huge AoE), it can basically do everything, and it does all of the jobs much more efficiently than any of the other spell casters due to the immobilize effect on fungal growth. You can argue that templar are the same way, but there are much easier ways to avoid it- ie running workers away from a worker storm, pre stimming units in a dropship to prevent a full energy medivac that would get sniped on arrival, 'dodging' storms, etc etc. I feel nerfing fungal to a slow spell would change this over-effectiveness of the infestor
tl;dr: I think the best way to go about this would be to remove the immobilize effect on fungal and instead do a slow, even if you increase the damage on it. Or at the very least, some nerf to prevent chain fungals on units.
|
On August 25 2011 17:50 sleepingdog wrote:
what I've always felt that made fungal growth "imbalanced" ist the fact that you can NOT avoid being chain-fungalled by....anything
I go back to my warcraft 3 experience (I was orc): orc units were very vulnerable to opponents' spells like slow, etc. This sucked, nevertheless this was why orcs had TWO ways to disable spells - purge (single target) and disenchant (aoe; required research).
There is NOTHING that either terran or protoss can do once we are fungalled. From a competitve gaming view this is just terrible. EMP-ing, let alone feedbacking all infestors is not possible in lategame. I mean, fungal growth would be a good spell even if it did ZERO damage - completely removing the ability to MOVE is a frickin amazing ability dammit.....especially since you also have broodlords.
It's this exact combination:
a) no movement (not just slow)
b) aoe damage (actually quite high)
c) NO WAY OF REMOVING IT
I sincerely hope Blizz adds units in HotS that have a spell that removes stuff like fungal and forcefields - because this would enable the opponent to have a micro/skill-based response to this.
Well, if they returned the duration to 8s (or more) and reduced the mana cost to 50 (as FF) I would have no problems of fungal doing no damage. It would effectively be a zerg version of FF then. Maybe even useful with hydras (6 range against 5 range marines).
|
People mention slow, but how do you really counter blink stalkers if it was changed to slow (which then mean you can blink)? On certain maps, blink stalkers are so cost effective versus the zerg army.
And as a infestor user myself, I find it nice to have one unit, that is scary. Rest of the zerg units are, bleh. I feel with the infestor out, your enemy is actually scouting your army, and is scared, he just cant walk over you. It also delays the army so you can have a few seconds to get your units out.
Also keep in mind, that the infestor is FREAKING huge in size. I guess it has to be since it can burrow move, but still.
|
On August 25 2011 18:42 crappen wrote:
People mention slow, but how do you really counter blink stalkers if it was changed to slow (which then mean you can blink)? On certain maps, blink stalkers are so cost effective versus the zerg army.
And as a infestor user myself, I find it nice to have one unit, that is scary. Rest of the zerg units are, bleh. I feel with the infestor out, your enemy is actually scouting your army, and is scared, he just cant walk over you. It also delays the army so you can have a few seconds to get your units out.
Also keep in mind, that the infestor is FREAKING huge in size. I guess it has to be since it can burrow move, but still.
Blizz could prevent stalker blink / dropping / picking up / changing form while slowed, nobody said that had to be removed if the effect was changed to a slow.
They could pull it off; they pulled off a drug that makes a marine pull the trigger faster and run as fast as the world record holder for the 40 yard dash
|
Why do we never see someone NP an enemy worker and start a Nexus or Command Center, how cool would it be if some pro's would incorporate that into their play. Yo 'sup, I'm going roach siege tank.
|
On August 25 2011 19:05 Thorakh wrote:
Why do I have never seen someone NP an enemy worker and start a Nexus or Command Center, how cool would it be if some pro's would incorporate that into their play. Yo 'sup, I'm going roach siege tank.
Would be the sickest thing ever if that would be viable haha, unfortunately the investment is too big =(
edit: amg i evolved
|
Infestors have evolved to be a solid unit, and as zerg players too have evolved they have been used more and more. Infestors contain great potential, lets use that power!!
|
On August 25 2011 18:25 xAPOCALYPSEx wrote:
Like the other posters here, what makes me think of the infestor as an 'imbalanced' unit is the fact that you can literally do nothing about the units the get fungalled. ...
now imagine you play against a toss that uses sentrys and traps all, or parts of your army, while collosus/HTs deal their AOE damage.
|
On August 25 2011 19:06 ZaaaaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 19:05 Thorakh wrote:
Why do I have never seen someone NP an enemy worker and start a Nexus or Command Center, how cool would it be if some pro's would incorporate that into their play. Yo 'sup, I'm going roach siege tank. Would be the sickest thing ever if that would be viable haha, unfortunately the investment is too big =( edit: amg i evolved Play until midgame, research NP (which will also help in battle), NP SCV, build CC at an expansion, make some SCV's (do drones return resources to the CC or will they go to a hatchery? haha), build 6 reactor barracks, pump marines, WOOT!
Marine roach infestor, yeaaaahh.
|
On August 25 2011 17:50 sleepingdog wrote:
I sincerely hope Blizz adds units in HotS that have a spell that removes stuff like fungal and forcefields - because this would enable the opponent to have a micro/skill-based response to this.
On that note, zerg needs feedback or EMP like ability to combat enemy spellcasters.
|
On August 25 2011 17:44 hydrar wrote:
infestors aren't overpowered..they're just good, actually the best unit of zerg (better than tier 3) that's the truth
Imba is defined as a unit used in a disproportionate number of situations, aka the "go to unit" that marginalizes all other choices. Or alternatively a unit/tactic that takes low skill to use compared to skill to stop it. Based in that criteria infestor is imba. No way around that. Especially the way someone like Destiny plays all-infestor-all-the-time. Have even seen him take out 15 ultras with just infestors before now that you mention it.
Whether it's needed due to Zerg's other deficiencies is another issue. But it's bad for the game as is.
|
On August 25 2011 19:21 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 17:44 hydrar wrote:
infestors aren't overpowered..they're just good, actually the best unit of zerg (better than tier 3) that's the truth Imba is defined as a unit used in a disproportionate number of situations, aka the "go to unit" that marginalizes all other choices. Or alternatively a unit/tactic that takes low skill to use compared to skill to stop it. Based in that criteria infestor is imba. No way around that. Especially the way someone like Destiny plays all-infestor-all-the-time. Have even seen him take out 15 ultras with just infestors before now that you mention it. Whether it's needed due to Zerg's other deficiencies is another issue. But it's bad for the game as is.
Yeah.. But what could they really do for the Zerg otherwise besides the infestor that wouldn't cripple the race is the question that comes to mind then.
Only thing I could think of really that'd make up for it even would be lowering costs more, fixing hydras, and 1 food on.. something.
Then some form of real anti air unit IN the air, like how the devourer used to be in BW. Something that can handle the air battles of SC2 that isn't a slow piece of crap. :/
They'd really need to just re-do a LARGE portion of the race, and they said that they didn't wanna do any monsterous changes after beta, so.. Yeah. Infestors are what we get to equalize it, bad or not for the game.
Bandaid fixes are fun, amarite?
*edit*
Btw, in that video, is it just me or did incontrol seem a bit defensive on the infestor issue? It kinda sounded like incontrol actually just doesn't agree with the way that protoss is ment to be played with the current meta game, and wants it to change.
|
On August 25 2011 19:05 Thorakh wrote:
Why do we never see someone NP an enemy worker and start a Nexus or Command Center, how cool would it be if some pro's would incorporate that into their play. Yo 'sup, I'm going roach siege tank.
Would only really work with toss due to insta build. Some sweet BM though.
|
On August 25 2011 19:36 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 19:05 Thorakh wrote:
Why do we never see someone NP an enemy worker and start a Nexus or Command Center, how cool would it be if some pro's would incorporate that into their play. Yo 'sup, I'm going roach siege tank. Would only really work with toss due to insta build. Some sweet BM though.
Is it possible to infest a probe, then load it into one of your OL's and fly it off to your base? Keep an infestor with the probe in the OL for when it lands, then infest and build away. Make cannons everywhere, lol.
If that'd be possible, then that'd be so sick. :>
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
